Intimacy: What's Sacred?

I am Non-Jewish and I am now a B"Nei Noach but back 38 years ago I had relations outside of marriage with my now husband. When dating after several weeks he asked me to sleep with him and I did but it is something I regretted. I was afraid that if I said No he wouldn't go out with me anymore. I should have taken that rout because I can testify to the fact that it does cloud your judgement and you cannot see clearly. We are still married but it is not a good marriage. We do not communicate well and emotionally he is not there for me and never has been. It has not been a good marriage on many levels. I certainly would not recommend any girl sleeping with a guy before marriage - Jewish or non-Jewish. It costs too much and women are worth so much more than cheap thrills. I learnt the hard way and boy, what a lesson. Helen.

How do you know that having pre-marital sex ruined your marriage? It could one of a number of things - I do not think that you can lay the blame on having pre-marital sex. MANY people have had pre-marital sex and are very happily married. I am not saying that pre-marital sex is right or wrong - what I am saying is that that was not the only reason for your unhappy marriage. Marriage is far more complicated than that. Maybe you are just looking for an excuse??

correct me if im wrong, but i read helen's comment differently: that having premarital sex is what pushed the relationship to BECOME a marriage, because of a deep, physical relationship as opposed to a deep, emotional/caring relationship. it seems that her relationship with her boyfriend advanced too quickly, and she wasnt logical when making a decision.

I've come from a religious life to a secular life.. I have some "problems".. this is definitely a way forward to having some more stable relationships :)

Sexual incompatibility is just as real a possibility (and a threat to a good relationship) in a marriage as any other type of incompatibility. I can see this being a very real issue, especially for women in young couples--who then simply resign themselves to a lifetime of dissatisfaction.....or who simply are never educated to know better, to know what could be possible for them (as a permitted pleasure) in the sexual experience. I think it is much better to have a partner with some degree of experience in these matters: a husband or wife who has some level of *skill* and understanding that the idea in sex is to give pleasure to the other person you are with--not simply to get to the end as quickly as possible (so to speak). When at least one person in the marriage has some level more advanced sexual thinking, then both partners tend to benefit more, I think.

but Torah law is the same as always. Does anybody think about the laws of Nida? What about the punishment of Koreis?Some Jews think if they are not religious they can do whatever they want. Wrong! Wrong! Jewish law pertains to all Jews regardless of how religious they consider themselves. Hilchos Nida are extremely strict. And no, you don't get away with it in the long run.

Being shomer negiah before marriage does protect the woman, but I had done this at a later time in life, and I had learned that it doesn't work from my experience. I feel it is okay to have premarital relations before marriage with the intent to marry.

It is G-d who created our physical, emotional and spiritual potential and needs. Following halacha (i.e.Jewish law) is living our lives in accordance with G-d's commandments which are in sync with our true needs as designed by our Creator. If we skew things and "feel" differently, that does not change Jewish law. Jewish law unequivocally forbids premarital relations. Go argue with G-d about what is okay and what is not.

lori, thank you for your words!!, always wonderfull and significative. it is not only your words , its the way you say them. I need to speek in spanish, but I hope someone may traduce to you. Que padre que tengas el valor de hablar de este tema. Yo creo que si no estuvieramos concientes de que para Hashem no es adecuado tener relaciones premaritales, mucha gente lo haría, ¿acaso algun día no te paso por tu mente llegar a hacerlo? , si, pero te detuvo tu Irat shamaim y tus valores tan solidos. Es totalmente cierto lo que dijiste de la " claridad". Te felicito....muy bena reflexión.

Shared with my scouts via FACEBOOK.

Lori: I'm from Mexico and recently inscribed to Aish's page so my son recomend me to see your blog (he see it with translation to spanish) and I liked it so much that what I did as I didn't had the time to see all your previous blogs is to download them and covert them to MP3 so now I can hear them in the car and I really enjoy them. Thanks for all the advise.

I am a divorced dati leumi woman who will not sleep with any man until I am married to him. Kedusha- holiness- is the cornerstone of the Jewish people. We are commanded to be holy. Sleeping with a man you are not married to is not holy behavior, by far. We are not animals who indulge our desires simply to satisfy them. Marriage is the holy institution that elevates the sexual union. I like Lori you used the world "sacred" because that is exactly what this is about. A Jewish woman is expected to behave with dignity and holiness. Passing yourself around to men you are not married to is not a dignified way for a Jewish woman to behave. And before some women tell me they would only sleep with a man they thought they had a future with- how many times have we met a man we thought "for sure" we'd have a future with- only to be bitterly disappointed once we got to know him better. Jewish women can- and should- behave better than this.

I couldn't agree with you more. I've been married before and the men out there are no different to the teenage boys or young men in their early twenties. On the most part, most men want it all, sex included, with no commitment. I met this amazing guy. Thank G-d he's frum but he doesn't know if he can commit to a relationship. I'm not asking him to jump into bed with me. As you said, that is something sacred and should/must wait until you are married. All I want is a commitment and then we can take it from there. Brochas. I need brochas!

Lori is so calming, so sensible, and so real - she brings CLARITY (the word she emphasizes in this video) to this vexing real-life dating conundrum - sleep-with-him-or-lose-him. Lori, keep on talking; we need your messages in this crazy age.

This is excellent. I hope parents, youth leaders and teachers will use this!

It is never easy to discuss this issue with your children, when everyone in the world seems to think nothing about having sex with anyone and everyone they have a date with. Lori, you make it so clear and easy in a short discussion, how wrong this is. Let us try and convince our young teens - and especially the young boys to respect themselves and their companions and keep intimacy and playing between the sheets until they are married.

Lori thank you! I just passed this on to my daughter to night to share with a group of her friends that meet weekly great material for them. As for the young men i will show this to them and have no reservation about using because though your example is as a young woman the same is true if you used a young man as an example. Truth is Truth ! for the older generations welll... I will be 60 in 8 weeks. . I have been single for 5 years and am not dating a wonderful woman There will be no sexual contact between us because we do not want that to keep us from seeing us as we really are. if after we have explored our selves and find we can marry with out reservation or compromise of our values then we will marry and enjoy each other sexually. Any thing less is selfish use of each other,is it not? Adultery is adultery ,age has nothing to do withmoraly acceptibale

I disagree with your last sentence. It is only adultery if one or both individuals are married. If both people are single for whatever reason and are mature (I'm over 60) and marriage may not be realistic...why not enjoy each other? Sure there can be the religious rule violation debate..but life is too short and maybe some rules can be broken to enjoy life...just my opinion.

The main reason to wait for marriage is to protect the woman from men who would be happy to use them for sex but not be family men. However, lots of people get married and do NOT share money with one another. That is what pre-nups are all about, especially in 2nd marriages. Furthermore, we have all engaged baby sitters whom we trust to watch our children for a few hours, but that doesn't mean that we'd share financial information with them. What? They have access to your kids but you wouldn't trust them with your money?? Similarly, some women don't feel used or hurt if they have sex with the man, even if he dumps them. It's lost the stigma, so they don't feel stigmatized. Too bad. Intimacy has lost its intimate nature!

Fabulous video Lori! In this time of fast access to all things, poor role models on tv "kardashians, jerseylicious,sex and the city" this is relevant to all singles regardless of age. Toda Rabbah!

It is a shame mothers and daughters did not have such advice throughout the past 50 years when intimacy became so commonplace. Now that pre-teens are intimate, even without knowing the potential outcomes, you message and method of delivery is most timely. Thank you.

Is it because young men are not supposed not to understand self-control in intimacy matters? Or is it because this message doesn't apply to them?

virginity is a gift for you husband (the man you love) and intimate relations is for married people only!

Thank you for showing such courage. The message is timely. I suppose we feel that since we are part of this culture we need to participate in its values. Why not? What harm can it do if we take precautions? Back in the 50's and 60's, we were the envy of the West as far as divorce statistics. It was almost unheard of. Now, we are right there, with the rest of them. We are better, but still close. Our Orthodox population is saving us. But, we have been down this road before. Have we not lived within the walls of these great cultures? Have we not been warned so many times not to be part of them? And what was the consequence each and every time, without fail? There is a saying that I learned from a great rabbi. He said, "Just remember that reason sells itself to the highest bidder." In this case, it is one's lust. The choice is there.

I think your what is sacred is well thought out but it seems to be directed to Mothers & Daughters and should also be addresse to Fathers & Sons. In addition there is also the matter of self respect and respect for the partner. In todays world I think we have lost that ingredient as indicated by the films we watch. the way we dress, the books we read, the way we advertise are all directed to excite the prurient instincts of our young people. Its no longer shameful to have children out of wedlock and when you look at the statistics in this country, Divorce takes place in almost 50% of marriages. I'm not a saint and I really should not criticize without a positive solution but as an Octogenarian, my thinking is we have lost respect for ourselves and each other and getting it back, although at this point difficult, should be our goal.

Hi Lori -- Your advice to wait until you're married may well work for teenagers who envision getting married when they're in their late teens or their early twenties. But for those who see themselves as marrying in their thirties, or for those who already are in their late twenties or their thirties, it's not too realistic. For them, simply emphasizing "first, clarity" before beginning intimate relations enough of a message without suggesting "first,clarity; next, marriage" prior to sex, which is probably asking to much.

Eliyahu, I saw your comment, and, I just had to reply. You say that asking people who don't envision themselves getting married until their thirties to refrain from intimate relations with a partner is asking too much. My question to you is, of whom is it asking too much? The Torah places a premium on a woman's chastity on her wedding night, and, most Jewish men will balk at marrying a woman who isn't a virgin until her wedding night. So who are Jewish men supposed to have relations with outside of marriage, assuming that Jewish women are observing the Torah, and, waiting for marriage? Is it that Jewish men want to emulate the goyim, and, sleep with a woman promising to marry her, but, never getting around to it? Or, is it that they want to sleep with nochriyot before finding a nice Jewish girl to settle down with? Heaven forbid the self-same Jewish girl have the foresight to ask her intended to be tested for STDs before marriage assuming that he respects her enough to be honest about his exploits. Jewish women, were they to engage in similar behavior, would be vilified, and, humiliated throughout their community for their entire lives, and, no Jewish man would marry them. Am I to believe then that Jewish men are not expected to have an ounce of foresight, or, impulse control, while, we, Jewish women are expected to be paragons of virtue capable of quelling every human impulse? That's absolutely ridiculous, and, absolutely not in accordance with Torah. Bottom line is, if Jewish women are expected to resist the temptation to be intimate before marriage, then the same restraint, and, impulse control should be expected of Jewish men. So, no, Eliyahu, it is most definitely not too much to ask.

I couldn't agree with you more. And here is something else that might help when it comes to self-restraint: other modern-day cultures have taken two approaches to trying to fool G-d about their intentions and actions by either sleeping around, or by taking multiple wives. Better is the man who takes the one good wife G-d has arranged for him to love and be faithful to, and if so blessed, to share children with, than those men who act like tomcats or run modern-day harems. I have been 'self-restraining' for many years and I sure don't like it; but I know it matters to G-d and will matter some day to the man I marry.

Dear Lori, I love your vids! They always have a take-away message. You are finally hitting some very sensitive notes that our generation is very familiar with. Please continue to speak about these topics. Can you also target the male audience? I am sure you deal with women a lot more than with men, but many men listen to you too and would love to hear the Torah's view through your understanding. Your delivery is phenomenal. Thank you for your small doses of chizuk. They add up.

I am very impressed with the candor and integrity of this clip and will circulate it among my circle of friends who are parents of teens (both observant and non-observant). I recommend that you post it on YouTube and every other accessible social media venue for wide exposure. Forward as well to PEJE and Torah Umesorah for their Teacher Information. We cannot assume and/or take for granted that any young dating-age man/woman has control of their clarity.

Lori - I've never heard these points put so clearly. Clarity is indeed the goal. Brilliant!

I understand about the clarity thing , but if you are attracted to the guy already and have romantic thoughts, doesn't it kill the clarity anyway??? You have acoffe together and the clarity is gone......

Lori, I think you have addressed this subject well and the advise is fine for young first timers. I am a fellow( Jewish but not frum) whose wife of many years past away. I have been going out wife a nice Jewish woman previously married. At this time for a number of reasons marriage isn't practical but since we are both consenting and mature adults, waiting isn't part of the reality.

This clever video talk provides a wonderful mini-story to bring to life what the philosophers mean when they say sex has become "commoditised", and what a travesty that is. But, for the message to be effective, the person it's aimed at would need to be a Bank Account holder, and I would think a sizeable proportion of the target audience does not.

Dear Lori, can you make one for our teenage sons, now? They too are at so much risk - not just in their pocketbooks, but in their hearts and future children. A great video!

The relationship between the two is precious. It shouldn't just be about bodily pleasure, but about connecting on a deeper level. You find that out by spending time talking to each other and seeing if you are compatible, have similar values and interests and are good for each other. Intamacy is special and should be kept for a special time

I think your advice is pertinent to young men as well. Anything less is ridiculous.

I told my girls that the best way to find out if a guy is serious is to _not_ sleep with them. If they stick around, they're serious. If not, they're not the one you want anyway. I also told them that the major factor in my divorce was that their mother and I slept together before we got to know one another. Truth be told, I told my sons the same thing, gender-adjusted of course. Fortunately both their mother and I have happy, fulfilling and loving second marriages so they had good models, if not the ideal situation of their parents' having a good relationship together.

Dear Lori I think that in a society 120 years ago your ideas were right, the torah has all the wisdom , but just as much as we adapted our lives to the advances of technology, i believe the same should apply to people exploring our sexuality, just with the aid of good sexual education at home. Your work is incredible, but we agree to disagree on this one.

With all due respect Alejandro, sleeping together is as old as the Torah, and much more advanced than any "technology". We even have "after you have done it" contraception. You make "exploring our sexuality" sound archaological. I hope you understand that usually it is the female that ends up the artifact. I must side with Lori on this one.

Alejandro -- "exploring our sexuality" has to be one of the most Orwellian phrases I could think of when it comes to sex. If the Torah was written 120 years ago and was written by people, then it'd be a nice self-help book. But it is the word of HaShem, our Creator (yep, yours too!) and we should heed G-d's advice. Even you say that "the torah has all the wisdom". So why are you questioning what you claim to be infallible? Maybe because its an inconvenience. Lori is 100% correct on this one.

Sex before marriage is not what our creator wants. Why ? Because it was designed as a pleasure for following HIS plan of marriage and creation. One lacks respect for G-d, and the other "partner" by doing so. One seeks the pleasure for the pleasures sake. How many divorces, broken families, could be avoided if this was not done ?

What about after you're engaged? You already had the clarity to come to the realization you want to spend the rest of your life with them... so then what is wrong with sleeping with your fiance?

Where there is no commitment, the woman is taking a huge chance with the most precious thing she has; her very self. Once the woman has enough self respect to wait until marriage, she has everything to gain. She can never be torn apart like girls and women are today.

I agree completely. My children are now 42, 39, and 36 (the two eldest are married with three children each (my daughter went to Israel with you this past summer) and my youngest is engaged) but when they were in college I gave all of them the same talk--you may think you are an adult and can handle adult relationships but sex is a complex act and is not worthwhile when it is casual and not committed. I told them that I am guiding them now; when they have graduated from college they can better plan out their future and think out these complex relationships. Don't have sex; too many complex emotions are awakened that are too difficult to deal with when you are trying to decide what your future will entail and what kind of a person you want to spend your life with. Of course I was speaking from my own perspective as I was married right after I graduated from college and could never dream of the lack of seriousness that now pervails. While I do not believe in Shomer Negiah, the current "third date" behavior is destructive for the individual and for society.

it protects a girl and teaches the guy how precious, special, incredible and magical this girl is.

My daughter has just become engaged to a great guy whom she feels very close to. Their courtship was conducted in a relationship that does not allow touching-both agreed on that. She would relate how their "dates "were so special filled with many hours of dialogue concerning their characters and their aspirations for a full Jewish life together based on values they had seen in their homes and had learnt from school.When she would be separated from him for a short while she would hug herself and say how much she misses him.When they are together they look very "lovey dovey" and stlll have the "strength" to hold back the touch. Yes initially it seemed almost not natural that they would not even hold hands but as the months went by one could really sense the quality they shared in their unique relationship. I envy them on that special evening of their lives when they can share that intimacy on such a high and meaningful level that others throw away for the sake of fun.

Lori, this was a great video and one of your best. I agree with it 100%. However, as a young man BT, I urge you to make another video devoted to men and their need to wait for sex until marriage. It takes two to tango, so to speak. As other commentators have said, focusing only on women is unfair to them and ignores male desires. Women absolutely need to follow your advice but men do too (which I know you wouldn't disagree, but it wasn't addressed in this video).

If the girls so "no" the boys don't have much choice.

It's teaching men that this is a woman worth waiting for!

Lori--The fathers need to speak with their sons just as much as the mothers need to speak with their daughters. I have a 20 year old son and my husband and I have told him we are against premarital relations. To exclude the young men from this otherwise important and fine essay is to put too much unnecessary pressure on our young women.