Forgiving a Murderer

I 100% agree with your view on forgiveness.There should be no forgivgeness in this horrible incident.You are so right or should I say Judaism is so right!!!!

Our hearts go out to the Cho family because they too lost a family member but that does not in any way mean forgiveness for the gunman. Deranged?...perhaps, but he knew just what he was doing and with no remorse. Thank you Rabbi for your well expressed thoughts.

I agree with what you said. I do believe that cho's parents, teachers, the court system, the mental health system and the college all failed him. They are as guilty for what happened as he is. But he still did the crime. He still knew what he was doing. He murdered those people in cold blood. It is a dishonor to put him with the victims. Write about him and his sad situation in life. But in no way should he be remembered less than what he was: A cold blooded selfish murderer. Only Hashem can forgive him.

Too many times we keep people not responsible for their own actions. I'm sure that murderer had his bright moments to plan the whole thing, so he is accountable for what he is done. Mental illness is not an excuse, it's like listing any other murderer with the victims.

The sad reality of the situation that one has to be honest: every killer is a mental patient (nobody in the right state of mind will premeditate and go ahead and kill). However victims are innocent ones (all they did is went to study).

And yes, we all are made in G-d's image, but all of us are under the stress. Suicide is the sad reality of the stress, but way more normal than murder. We are all given tools to cope with whatever G-d gives us, but some people choose wrong.


May be it's time to be compassionated to the victims and morn the loss of innocent lives.

Thank you for putting my sentiments into words.

....you are right. On the other hand, I keep hearing a lack of acknowledgement of the sin committed against these people who do this recently. Keep in mind that I don't excuse their choice of action(the gunmen). However, do you mean to say that people who harrass, humiliate and ostracize people relentlessly are not at all to blame for someone finally loosing their temper? "If one causes another's face to go white or red, it is the same as murder." We have become very callous to other's feelings in this society. We tend to tell little children in school 'quit being a baby, ignore what they say'. But we forget the other half of the equation, to stop the perpetrators of mental torture. By the time one gets to high school or college, the build-up can be tremendous. Especially in cases where the same people you knew in high school follow you to college. Again, I am not condoning the insane murder. But the news stories also included mention of him being harrassed and excluded by a large number of fellow students. He should have blocked them out. He should have picked up a hobby or filled his time with his studies. But also, THEY should not have been cruel. THEY should not have made their desire to associate with others a painful public embarrassment to him. There are tactful ways to decline a persons request to hang out.If others in the student body knew about his embarrassment enough to share it with the newsreporters, then these others were obviously using cruel and unusual methods to segregate themselves from him. This is not the only time I have seen this kind of thing in the news. WE REALLY NEED TO WORK ON BEING MORE COMPASSIONATE TO OTHERS IN THE FIRST PLACE. FROM A TINY SEED A GREAT OAK TREE GROWS.

I wish it were that easy. I do not believe this is an issue of Judiaism...but one that crosses all religions.

A mentally ill boy kills his classmates. Is he a victim? Not in the traditional sense of the word. But he is not in his right mind; and if not in his right mind, can he be held accountable for his actions.

Can society be held accountable for failing to address his illness, can his family, can he?

Compassion for the mentally ill is "jewish" are we not a compassionate people.

If he only killed himself, would we not be compassionate and try to understand the illness and pain of this boys life?

I do not think it is compassion misplaced. This is a tragedy and I do believe that seeing this as such as recognizing this boy did not do it out of extreme hatred (which in a sense is a form of mental illness) like the Columbine Massacre, but out of some sick twisted sense of who knows what...it was probably healing to the VT community to acknowledge he was one of their own, even if not 'normal' and I think they showed compassion, kindness and doesn't that, ultimately, reflect G-d?

Whenever I read an article about Cho, my mind can't help but wander to thinking about Dr. Librescu, the Holocaust survivor who was the true hero in all this, throwing himself in front of students to save them.

I commented in other articles about VTech that I absolutely understand the rancor and hate that builds up after the tolerance threshold of bullying has been breached, and I will never take that back, though I am aware of the "letter" of the Noachide Law. I myself had been bullied mercilessly all throughout school, for lots of things that were compeltely beyond my control, and in lots of ways it has ruined my life. I understand why things such as Cho and those of Columbine happen. Systems are simply not fool-proof, and the schooling system here in the US is simply another broken cog in the wheel of society. The schooling systems, and in fact lots of parents and other adults, quite often simply don't care to give lessons on how to be a "mensch", as you say in Yiddish.

On the other hand, I have been bullied, and have played violent video games since I was 6 and never, EVER got in trouble with the law, and don't intend to anything like Cho had done.

And then there is Dr. Librescu. I'm sure he had to have seen some horrible, abominable things done to himself and others in the Holocaust.

Maybe the question we should ask is not "What made Cho do what he did?", rather maybe the question should be, "What *prevented* Dr. L from doing the same thing??"

Was it his faith? His family? His friends? Was it simply a decree of GD that he would not lash out as Cho did? Or was it his Jewish genes? Or did he somehow vent his pain in ways we could not know of? Or did he recieve treatment for the things he experienced?


(I agree with the Rabbi however, that the memorial to Cho in the same area as the other victims is completely and horribly inappropriate!)

Why are so many people attempting to dehumanise the murderer. I do not suggest that Cho did not do a terrible thing. But that is no the same as him being terrible. i am sure that in his life Cho had done many good deeds, does that make him perfectly good? No, but it does mean that he just like i am neither good nor evil. I am simply capable of doing good or evil. By simplifying this down so that Cho becomes not a man but monster we are forgettin that he was just the same as ourselves. Ok so you might say, 'i would never do such a thing', but then all the more reason to find out why Cho did murder those people. Not because he was evil, because this is easy, and does not help at all. If we label all that do wrong as evil we will never be able to learn how to help people not to commit murder etc.

i am new to this site, and did not expect to read oppinions that should have died out thousands of years ago. Several comments i have read have no compassion, no kindness or wisdom and yet these are the people condeming the immoral. Can they not see the contradiction?

There have been some comments that have made excellent points, that Cho was mentally ill, but apparenttly it is ok to vilify the sick. I am sure that you are all perfect and so have no worries about judging others.

If we are all made in God's image then so was Cho. The cause must contain the effect.

If suicide under extreme stress does not mean that they are damned, which cases of suicide are not committed under stress. The comment that made this point is drawing a meaningless distinction.

Mourning the death of Cho is not misplaced compassion. Cho is as deserving, if any of us are, of compassion. Not only for his sake, but what does it say of those that hate and detest the dead. If you position yourself as moral, by condemning immoral acts it is inconsistent, ignorant and hypocritical to then so vehemently hate and atack the indefencible.

Thank you for you comments about the murderer as a victim. I completely agree that the murderer should NEVER be listed with the victims. He TOOK their lives from them and in a most horrible fashion. I knew it was wrong at Columbine and I know it is wrong at Virginia Tech. If one of those inocent victims had been my son or daughter.......I would have been LIVID about numbering the murderer with the victims. Why do people sometimes have a strange sense of "feeling Holy" when they feel their forgiveness includes someone who was so incredibly EVIL.
Only God should make that call. For the sake of the families....leave the murderer's name out of it. In fact his name should be turned into a number so that potenial future murdering/self glorifiers can see there is only shame in it. The picture of their face should also be reduced to a shadow. It is the personal right of the families to forgive and get through it in their won way and when they so choose too...........NO ONE ELSE. The memorial for the murder(especially in the same place) is a horrible slap in the face of those families. It is wrong and whoever did it should be ashamed of themselves!!!!!!!

Compassion or understanding of mental illness should never be used as the rational to absolve anyone for the wonton murder of other human beings. These 32 senseless killings were cold blooded murder. Because, the killer took his own life afterward, does not eradicte the fact that it was his choice to execute this heinous well planned killing rampage. I feel no sympathy for him, but have compassion for his family. May they find the strength to go on, and may they also find peace. As for wanting to place a marker for him with his victims, that to me would dishonor the innocents who died in his maniacal killing rampage.

If Cho had not killed himself he would have had the opportunity to repent or not to repent. "The dead do not praise Hashem." Jewish law and tradition recognizes that a person who is unable to think rationally is not culpable in the same way that a sane person is. For example, the sanction that denies a suicide normal burial is set aside if the suicide acted under extreme duress, which halakhic authorities say includes those who are psychotic (as Cho probably was).
Cho was a victim in two ways.
He was a victim of the seriously inadequate treatment for the mentally ill in our country today. At one time someone with Cho's history would have been committed to a special hospital. Half a century ago three quarters of all incarcerated persons in the United States (two thirds of one percent of the population) were in mental institutions. Today 97% of all incarcerated persons in this country (still about 2/3 of one percent of the total population) are in prison. With few exceptions today the mentally ill are treated as out-patients, except during crises, and, if they commit a violent crime are put in prison where there is no adequate treatment. As a Rabbi I have visited such prisoners (who really belonged in treatment). The United States has a larger percentage of its population and a larger number of its population in prison than any other country in the world (and that includes China). This represents a terrible lack of compassion in our culture.
Cho was also a victim of the violence that pervades our culture. That a man with his history could purchase military weapons and ammunition is simply an outrage. The ready availability of assault weapons, kevlar-piercing bullets, street-sweepers (shotguns with many shells) and other weapons that plainly have nothing to do with hunting or target-shooting is stupidity of the highest order. The fools who say that arming student bodies in high schools and colleges are evidently ignorant of the nature of people in those age groups. This is social insanity and Cho was a victim of that too. He should not have had access to the weapons he used - no one aside from police and the military should.
Is it right to memorialize Cho along with his victims? The feelings of the families of the 32 dead and the thousands of on-campus survivors should be considered. Cho really was a victim and it is not wrong to mourn his senseless death. Maybe his stone should be elsewhere on the campus.

My heart goes out to the 32 victims' families and friends as they mourn their loved ones. Every individual is custom made by Hashem in His image. Each is likened to a whole world. Not only were these innocents murdered, but all possible future generations from these souls have been cut off. How can we give our pardon to their murderer? Do we fully grasp the consequences of Cho's evil actions?
When we ask G-d and others for forgiveness, our past wrong actions do not disappear. We try to repair ourselves to prevent their recurrence. We become a new person through honest repentance.
I know that many people in our society are suffering from all kinds of illnesses, physical and mental. But it is no excuse to get away with murder, even literally. The 6th commandment does not make exceptions. We can look for positive ways to cope, thru medication and support. As human beings, we all have free choice, ALWAYS. And we are held accountable for our actions when we can determine right from wrong. Cho knew the difference. We can only be judged, and then punished or rewarded if we had a choice in the first place.
We should still remember that G-d not only judges us individually, but all of humankind collectively. We are not free from our social responsibilities. To care for the sick, love our fellowman, be sensitive to outsiders, AND to set up just courts to differentiate between what is truly good and evil.
Putting a memorial up for a murderer is not showing that distinction.
May the memory of those killed be for a blessing. May we honor them by making our individual lives and the world healthier and safer. Thank you Rabbi for addressing this issue.

Thank you for your leadership on the proper view of the recent murder of the young adults who attended Virginia Tech. Evil without repentence continues to be evil. Memorializing Cho with the other students is the equivalent of memorializing evil.

CHO's ability to choose was impaired. Tshuvah was not within the range of
his choices. There is nothing to forgive. He was crazed. Why don't you
comment on the toxic effect of constant derision heaped on another person?
Why don't you comment on a society that allows crazed members to buy
lethal implements to be used against the rest of us? That's also something to
think about.

Cho , in our eyes is a morbid sick evil person. When we think of him we think of disgust and hatred for what he did . God detests and dispises the evil that Cho commited , at the same time because of His spirit there are probably many tears of sadness for Cho. . God looks on in total pity for this person had no idea of the true living God and his blessings . Cho was very weak and sick . He was lead by evil forces and has committed terrible crimes against humanity. Cho was uneducated in the spiritual sense. He did not forgive those who were hurting him which turned out to be very deadly. God is the only one who can teach people how to be forgiven and how to forgive. If we ask him, He is eager and willing to teach . Maybe if Cho prayed and asked God for some help and lessons on forgiveness this sad appalling story might not have been. Should we forgive Cho if he had never asked for forgiveness. We need to ask God for this answer. One day Cho will have to be accountable for his actions and there will be some form of punishment , which only God knows. Justise will truly be done. This is not up to humanity its in Gods hands now. Gods heart goes out to the victims and families . Adonai is holding them in the palms of his hands , saying a silent prayer for every thing to work out in the end for His glory. Although it dose not look good at this moment , it will all work out in His divine plan. God feels such sorrow for those families in grieving. He is waiting for people, all those called by his name to be counted . He is soon ushuring in a new kingdom . Its very hard for Him to watch and see the world in such a mess. He wants to return soon to fix this earth and all who live on it. May God hurry that day. Char

Dear Rabbi Solomon:

If we were to honor the gunman who commited suicide after he murdered 32 innocent people, we would be adding insult to injury to their survivors.

If anything, the gunman's name and memory should be cursed and then obliterated.

Sanford Jay Goodman
Harrisburg, PA

It is a burden to not forgive the person, or people, who have done you wrong. Unfortunately, only the one burdened can do the forgiving, and no amount of memorials or forgiveness by others will remove one's own burden of not forgiving.

The Lord God Almighty is the Author and the Judge and we should not make light of His definition of right and wrong. He specifies who is the Victim and who does the Victimizing.

I disagree with much of what you said. The VT murderer was also a victim. He was a victim of a defecient mental health system and a deficient judicial system both of which had several opportunities to help him when he was beyond being able to help himself. These systems failed him and all of us! This was a sick person whose mind was not functioning properly --- it was broken and no longer rational. [He may have been evil too; I don't know.] You cannot expect from him (had he lived) confession, repentence and compensation (if possible), unless he finally received help, returned to sanity and took it upon himself to confess, repent and compensate. Your Judaism is the kind of hard-edged, unforgiving kind that makes Christianity look good and Judaism less so. It is not my Judaism. Where is your compassion for the mentally deranged? If he wheeled himself into your office with two broken legs, you would immediately feel compassion; however, with the two broken legs between his ears, you find it easier to vilify. He was not a victm like those he killed and he shouldn't be compared to them or just "forgiven." But there should be understanding and compassion and help for others who suufer from mental illness. King David had compassion for Saul. Hating a mentally ill person is crazy! Holding onto the hate is even crazier!

I keep hearing our Jewish religion referred to as Judyism. Who was Judy? I know who Judah was, but I'll be danged if I know Judy.

To me, we practice Judah-Ism.

With that out of the way, if I was a student at the University, I'd take that stone and throw it in a lake; Cho was known to be mentally ill, yet was allowed to remain on campus. Equal opportunity, feh.

He had a history of being a mental patient yet purchased a gun. I place the blame for the 32 dead squarely on the Virginia legislators who approved their method of gun sales. They should apologize as well.

I live in Texas and can legally own a gun but only after an in-depth background check. Apparently, Virginia permits people to walk into a store, buy a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread, and the Glock of your choice.

Do I have pity for the murderer? No. Do or can I forgive. Please, it isn't my place to forgive anyone who hasn't directly harmed me.

The only people, aside from the parents and friends of those who were mercilessly cut down, that my heart goes out to is Cho's family. I bear them no enmity; they could not have imagined that their son could be a potential murderer. I pray for their ability to go on with their lives and somehow overcome this tragedy in their lives; they are victims too and my heart goes out to them. May HaShem grant them shalom.

The law is the law. All murderers must answer to the law that is both man's and God's law. In the case of Cho he escaped punishment under man's law by committing his last murder that is himself. However, he will not escape God's judgment. He will be judged for his actions while he lived including the murders he committed. It is up to each of us as individuals to spiritually forgive or not forgive a murderer or any other sinner for that matter. We must remember that we have the knowledge that God is the final and permanent judge. God did not tell us to change the law or the punishments that may be required under our (man's) law. If spiritual forgiving impossible for the individual then so be it. I hope and pray that we as individuals can explain our unforgiving actions well before the judgment seat when it comes our turn.

Remember we were all granted free will by God and he wants us to love one and other as he loves us. It takes more effort and energy to maintain a hateful and unforgiving heart than to forgive. Yes even murderers. And finally, forgiveness is not exoneration by any stretch but simply a spiritual forgiving and letting God be the eternal judge.

We are taught to ask for fogivness from our fellow man prior to HaShem giving forgive. How do we do this after death without any request. If we are all "in the image of HaShem" shouldn't the same rules apply?

My husband wrote earlier, but I must voice my opinion too.
1) Your argument reminds me of Simon Weisenthal's "The sunflower"; however the Nazi there was in control of his mind (as was Lee Harvey Oswald) , Cho was clearly deranged and not thinking rationally. If this is the position of Judiasm, I need to find another religion.
2) How can you as a psychotherapist not understand that when someone is delusional he is not operating from the same reference system as the rest of us. Cho was a victim of his illness. an illness which no one chooses or wants. I am a board member of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill and unfortunately know about mental illness first hand.

Cho (as well as Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris of Columbine) knew what he was doing. Bullying is a horrible thing and must be stopped at any cost, but it is no excuse to shoot one's classmates and professors. To forgive him would truly be misplaced compassion.

What the Rabbi says is true but I would add that the only ones that can forgive this murderer are his victims and they are all dead!

This also applies to the german killers during the Holocaust. The germans still do not understand, that all of the money in the world cannot forgive them for destroying the life of even one person !

I feel Cho died without remorse for his horrible act. I have no doubt there is a just God who will deal with him. I also believe that those who choose to forgive him, do so to avoid a seed of bitterness in their own heart, not to release him from his just penalty. That is Gods decision. For us, unforgiveness can be a cancer in our hearts.

The ten commandments teach us various mitzvoh. One is properly quoted as ......."Thou shall not murder".
It is a christian concept to avoid personal responsibility by offering forgiveness for sin. I believe that one should be held responsible for his actions and needs to answer to G-d.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

In this case maybe we should bury Lee Harvey Oswald next to JFK and give him an eternal flame too. Oh, but this would upset the sensibilities of the kinder gentler population, after all Lee Harvey Oswald was a murderer, not a victim. So why is Cho a victim and not a murderer. It can't be both ways. If Cho was a victim he was a victim of his own choices which makes him choosing to be a murderer. My heartfelt regrets to the grieving parents, I pray for their comfort in the light of this atrocious act. Good comment, thank you for your insights.

There's no way that {I} can forgive Cho. I cannot speak for other people, but, forgiving him is like slapping the faces of the victims, or making their existence inconsequential. The families have experienced a horror that is incomprehensible; how do you expect them to forgive Cho?

Please keep using the picture of Cho and add to it the complete package of what was sent to NBC. What Cho did was wrong! However, society through-out the world is coddeling the "BULLIES!" There will be more "Chos" as long as there is a bully running loose. Yes, we see a lot of grin and grip photos in the media about the "BULLY" policies in our schools - institutions - work places etc., but, when was the last time you were bullied or when was the last time you bullied someone? I think this is something to think about!
Thank you

This is commen in America where people don't take responsibility for their actions. Some people always blame others for their own shortcomings.

While we can forgive, we can not forget. The killer's parents should be forgiven, but not the killer. The question of giving kindness to the father and mother of the killer is of course we should..

The notion of "forgiveness' is misunderstood.
It is not for third parties--us--to forgive Cho. He who is wronged has the power to forgive. In this case, the wronged are dead, so Cho cannot be forgiven by them.

As to Cho,now it is for God to decide,
and I trust in His judgment.

He did not apologize, he did not regret his selfish actions. What's to forgive? The monster had no regrets. Cho blamed all but himself for his actions. A memorial for this killer is an insult to the victims, their families, and the entire community. Infamous murderers do not deserve memorials.

Reb...a thoughtful and meaningful commentary to misplaced compassion...

The gunman was certainly deranged and not in control of his emotions, actions, etc. It seems it was less than a concious decison rather than a malicious act.

I agree with you though that the commemoration of the gunman with his victims is a horrible affront to his vicitms and their family.

The folks down there who put the stone and flowers in place DID have misplaced compassion...they forgot compassion for the victims and families...and should never have memorialized a premediated murderer EVEN IF he was out of his mind.

Bob on Long Island, NY

There are certain areas where forgiveness fits the situation. This is NOT one of those areas. This was planned, this was written about (by the killer), this was methodically laid out and then the plan was executed on defenseless students and teachers. If I was there at the time this was taking place and I had this KILLER in my sights, the only thing I would have felt was the recoil of the shot. Forgiveness does NOT fit this sad situation. PLEASE, do NOT try to make this sad situation a "forgiving" situation.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reflection on the ramifications of "cheap grace". We need to be reminded that there are situations in life where evil is encountered and sweeping it under the rug, or adding a stone cheapens to value of life for everyone.

I completely agree with Rabbi Salomon about the wrongness of the memorial to Cho. (I agree with most of his commentaries!) The "victim mentatlity" of our day is corrosive to justice and morality. Forgiveness in Lutheran thought is to "let go" of personal bitterness and revenge. It is more for your own sake than for the sake of the offender. Reconciliation, on the other hand, is to embrace the offender. This cannot happen without the repentance that Rabbi Saloman describes so well. Public forgivness, as called for in the memorial, is a miscarriage of justice. Public sin (crime, in other words) demands public condemnation and if possible, justice, not irrational sentimentality. The huge imbalance between the evil that Cho suffered and the evil that he caused should speak for itself.

Schizophrenia and our societies inability to understand what that does to a human beings mind is not being discussed enough here. This is as real a disease as, say, diabetes and it is not any more the persons fault who has it than having diabetes. Mental illness has always existed. Insane assylums locked such people away, sometimes forever. Today we know that it is a brain disease, a chemical imbalance that can be treated but our society does a very poor job of doing this. A very large proportion of the homeless people are victims of this terrible disease. I am not excusing the actions of Cho, but understanding what makes things like this happen is the first step in preventing it's happening again. Insanity is NOT a moral issue, but the stigma of mental illness prevents many families from getting their loved one help. To compare this person to Hitler or Hisbullah or BinLaden is not understanding the disease. The manifestation of his paranoia was that in his mind others were out to get him so he in sick mind thought "I will get them first" I don't think that anyone ever sugested that those other atrocities committed by Hitler and those others were the result of a mentaly ill persons actions. I don't think we should forget or ignore such people as Cho because to do so is to just pave the way for another tragedy. To me the question isn't to forgive his actions but how can we learn to recognize and treat mental illness, to prevent such future tragedies from occuring.

A discussion on the inscription of the tombstone is still pending, no changes as of Nov.2006." Here lies the saint, Dr.Baruch Goldstein, blessed be the .....
Dear Rav Salomon, should there be a change of the inscription ?

Rabbi Salomon is right on point. The victims, our children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, family members where massacred, premeditatedly hunted down and executed. Yes the perpetrator was deranged, anyone who takes the life of another is deranged, but what were these people thinking placing a memorial with the same message alongside his 32 victims? If I were a relative of any of the 32 victims, I would immediately remove their memorial to a more suitable place so Mr. Cho can have the entire place and his own sick memorial to himself for eternity, but that memorial was not his idea, it was the idea of our society. How in theory is that different than placing a Hitler memorial alongside the six or so million Jews, Christians, Gypsies, and others he massacred? Hitler hated Jews, Cho hated students. Same line of thinking, same result. A lot of innocent dead bodies.

Whilst I hate what this boy did, and no one has the right to take another's life, I would have to ask as to what caused him to do such a drastic thing and be so full of hate.. I read that he was severely bullied and having been bullied as a young child myself because I was a tall girl, I can understand how his hate grew. I think we have to address the cause of this young mans actions and not hate him. The people who destroyed him through cruelty are as much to blame of these deaths as this young tortured man is... A young man in a strange country who was taunted, teased and bullied is a recipe for disaster..
Suicide because of bullying is now called bullyside. While my husband was principal of private schools, children were severely chastised if they bullied, and or asked to leave the school..there is NO excuse for bullying which is on the increase, and I say to parents to sue the school or education department for not addressing the bullying, then watch education boards really do something about the problem instead of pretending that they are...

i agree with Daniel and Martin's comments. People have the freedom to LIVE. NO ONE has the freedom to kill.

Consider...could it be "divine justice" that caused him to turn the gun on himself and commit suicide thus preventing him stopping him from killing any more innocent victims? Vengence is mine saith the L-RD I will repay.

The ten Commandments are respected, religiously by both the Jewish and Gentile World. These same commandments have served as the legal foundation for our secular,civilized world for thousands of years. The Sixth Commandment implores; "You shall not murder, or take another's life." Morality and Ethics teaches us that each law in the Ten Commandments is a "universal-law" that defines befitting behavior between human beings. And that these universal laws have existed long before given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. As Jews we believe that our God has always been the source or giver of every universal law. These same beliefs are equally respected by the Gentile World. However, the point here is that even for the atheist or agnostic who has no god or religion, they would have to agree upon these laws and accept them because of their universality. If all of these things were not true, mankind would have destroyed itself ages ago.

Cho cannot be excused for his crimes even if he was a raving maniac as some would believe. Cho's acts were not unpremeditated, spur of the moment crimes. Cho was either an evil person or one who was driven by a demented mind. Cho was very much like Adolph Hitler. That is, Cho set out to wantonly kill as many students as he could until he would be caught and he took his own life. The difference is in the number of lives destroyed by an insane Hitler as compared to an insane Cho!

Rabbi Yaakov Solomon, you are correct in your understanding of the VA Tech memorial! Evil is evil and we need to see it as such. The murderer is/was responsible for the decisions he made. We need to remember the justice of Hashem and the way He deals with evil. The prophets are clear that punishment is the consequence of evil action. Even in the Torah we find that evil action brings about "like kind" punishment and never excused. Parashas Tazria illustrates this well.
We must stop excusing evil and calling it a normal cultural response. I've read many comments about Cho, but whether he was deranged or not, does not give him the right to murder a single soul. It upsets me to know that an additional limestone was placed there for the cold blooded murderer. Cho was not a victim and certainly is held accountable before Hashem. Forgiveness? I don't know how one forgives a dead man who had no comprehension of forgiveness.
The added "memorial" sounds more like self-righteous forgiveness.

any way in the future when there is a murderer to show less of his/her photo?
wouldn't it have been more appropiate to show at least one photo of the memorials of which the blog talks about? But not just one photo and of the victimizer, wether he be Cho or not.

Give me the assurance that Cho is burning in hell, in agony and never to be consumed and I will be very forgiving.

Forgiveness is not a condition of wishing no harm or retribution by a higher power. All it means is that you will not exact revenge personally. You are therefore leaving the revenge up to someone who will be able to do a better job of it.

Dear Rav Salomon,
Similar ideas were expressed by Rav Shmulev Boteach in a Jerusalem Post article entitled "Hate the sinner, too."

Theologically, you are correct...i'm just not sure.

BB

I disagree with rabbi Salomon's contention that Cho, the gunman at Virginia Tech, was not a victim. He was indeed a victim -- of serious, untreated mental illness, of a society lacking the ability, or willingness, to intervene in such cases in order to prevent such brutality. Even when people are able to get health insurance, most plans exclude any coverage for mental illness. Of course, the vast majority of the mentally ill cause no suffering to anyone but themselves, but the few who are dangerous are just as ignored as the rest of these afflicted souls. Tragedies such as that at Virginia Tech are, sadly, almost inevitable.

Forgiveness is for yourself, not Cho or his family. If you let resentment or bitterness stay in you, you hurt yourself. It is not to say what was done by the man is somehow made right. We must be careful not to murder even in our hearts, or we are the same as him.

We do have moral judgements to make in Judaism as given to us by GD. And legally this angry man blamed everyone else for his failings and took pre-meditated revenge on innocent souls. A memorial should not be placed anywhere on the VT campus, let his own family take care of that.

Nobody said that this mental patient should be forgiven; he commited a crime for which he is not responsible! We should feel bad for all the casualties, Cho included.

If we start"feeling sorry" for this fellow; then we will forgive Hitler eventually? I speak as a non-Hebrew

There are two separate issues. The first is what extent, if any, to hold the gunman responsible for his actions. The second is if it is appropriate to memorialize him in the same setting as the others, which may be perceived as making an equivalency between the one who committed an act of murder and his victims.

As far as responsibility, I do not know. One question could be, if over the years, he ever attempted to get help for his illness(some of R. Dessler's writings on free-will may be relevant , although the question of mental illness is not discussed there, to my knowledge).

But honoring the gunman in the same memorial is a separate issue. Even one wants to say, "well, let's leave the judgment of the gunman up to God", however, equivalence between him and his victims is a judgment in the direction of exonerating him, and furthermore, sends the wrong message about the ease by which society grants forgiveness to those who commit acts of murder, or other serious crimes.

Cho is a man who set out to do what he wanted to do, destroy as many lives as he could and cause as much grief as he could. He planned for this course of action and carried it out flawlessly. He wasn't any crazier than other murderer. The problem is not insanity- it is EVIL! The sooner people begin to start naming the condition correctly the better moral deformation can be dealt with.

Morality and ethics are real and substantial. The sages say those who show compassion to the wicked display contempt for the righteous. Lest the line between good an evil be blurred further, this is an important lesson for us all.

What separates us from G-d is our lack of ability to be like Him. Satan uses every possible way to keep that separation in place. Unforgiveness is one of the strongholds he has to harden our hearts and keep us from being like our Creator. We are created to be with G-d and the more we listen to Satan and habor unforgiveness the the further we are from our L-rd.
Forgiveness is not based on what someone else does it is based on what we do. Choosing to chase after the Heart of G-d and love the way He does is forgiveness.
I don't agree that Cho should have a memorial set next to his victims, but I do think that in order for the families to heal and be examples of the abounding grace of G-d, they have to forgive and share how G-d comforts them as they walk through this valley.
G-d is the creator of life, including Cho's, and His desire is to have a relationship with everyone. Unfortunely we don't all choose to have that relationship with Him and we spend eternity seperated from Him. I feel sure that Cho's is finding that reality now and my heart cries for one more that G-d created that lost that honor of spending eternity with Him.

What Cho did was evil and inexcusable. By forgiving him without any sign of repentance on his part, we do trivialize the entire event and insult the memory of the victims. Truly, people today create the greatest injustices by failing to understand what justice is, and requires. It is not a "warm and fuzzy", feel-good thing. When people fall into that trap, which occurs perhaps a majority of the time, we not only miss the mark, but perpetuate the evil; albeit with good intentions.

Thank you.

I strongly agree with the Rabbi on this subject. A stone for him does not belong where the memory stones are for the victims. His stone should lay alone - alone for the damage he did to 32 familys.

How can the dead forgive? How can another forgive for one who is dead? I agree with your comments that this is wrong.

"Forgiveness" seems to be a misplaced buz word these days. There are acts that are unforgiveable!! The murder of these students was one such act!!! And the Rabbi is also right......he showed no remorse only defiance with his Video! The only Victims here were the murdered students.

I agree completely! I'm not Jewish, but we find this misplaced concept of "3rd-party forgiveness" in Christianity too. I addition to your comments, it is not possible for a person to forgive a wrong committed against another. Only the person who has been injured can extend forgiveness, and since they are all dead the matter is closed. It is important, however, for families & friends to release their bitterness to G-d, whose justice is perfect, but that is different from forgiveness. We must trust G-d for ultimate recompense but forgiveness is no longer an option. These concepts are unfortunately confused among many. Good job Rabbi!

I sadly watch the next generation being raised with no formal religious instruction, no belief in G D. My teenage nephews come to me to ask what is right and wrong because they know I study the TORAH, I am a christian. People are now lost and confused and the bold among the lost and confused lead them. It is time to speak up about G D's laws. Christians have thrown the law away and Jews keep to themselves. This generation needs to hear what their parents did not tell them. G D is real and he came to us to tell us how to live and it is in the first 350 pages of any bible.

My husband was bullied as a elementary school student and was a misfit in high school, yet he never did, or ever will, take a machine gun and shoot people in cold blood. He functions in society (eg works and is the father of a five-month-old). Cho cannot and should not be forgiven-he had to take responsibility for his actions.

That Rabbi Salomon is a psychotherapist is astonishing. To fail to understand that Cho exhibited alienation all his life ( think of the writing on his arm of (Ismael -sic) , the cast out son of Abraham, that courts recognize "guilty but mentally ill" and "Not guilty by reason of insanity", that Cho was not medicated and court committed, and took his own life, is to miss the point that he also was a victim. Salomon's interpretation of Judaism's view ignores Cho's insanity

One can not forgive him for carryout out this planned murder of others.
Many people have psychological problems but that is no excuse for killing. He knew exactly what he was going to do and planned how to do it. The guy who jumped out of the empire state bldg killed himself but he didn't drag others off with him.

I had a very religious friend. Until one day she started to pray for Hitler, that he too should have a place in heaven. That was the same as with this murderer. You are absolutely right. Forgiveness without repentence is not possible. I am glad I am Jewish, and we do have an opinion on this. We should forgive like Hashem forgives. And does he forgive without
repentence and confession and the wish, not to do it again? No!

I think that Cho was a victim in the sense that he was born with a defective mind. Whatever was wrong with him may never be known. The grief and anguish inside of him may never be known. I believe that SOMETHING was missing in his soul as no one in his right mind would (or could) commit such atrocities. As Jews we know this better than anyone. We do not need to forgive, but seek to understand his deficiencies so that his acts are not repeated. I believe God would agree.

As a writer and author, I find it odd that this crime has created such world wide attention. While not to diminish the enormity of the crime in Virginia it occurrs to me that greater crimes are committed world wide on a daily basis. The news reports daily, of large numbers of innocents killed in any number of countrys from the middle east to Africa and south east Asia. Are these deaths less important? Are they worth only ten seconds of air time or four lines in our newspapers? The taking of innocent lives for whatever political or personal purpose is in my opinion never to be forgiven. But neither is it to be forgotten. To forgive is to validate the crime!

I just began Nineteen Minutes, by Jodi Picoult the week end before these horrific shootings. What gives me goose bumps is the parallels in this book to what actually happened; right down to your comment about adding a stone to remember the diabolical shooter. It's haunting to profile such insanity; because the symptoms are all too similar and the time bombs that tick in the minds of such ill individuals are pandemic to this angry, poorly disciplined, and immature higher tech society. I think there is too much stimulus that exacerbates such diabolical behaviors. Would his evident symptoms have been a caveat for serious help in another society or generation?

The concept of helping those in need is elementary. In the same way that it is incumbent on us to pull someone back if he stepped in the path of an oncoming vehicle, whether this was his intention or not, Cho should have pulled been pulled off the streets because he was suicidal. The fact that Cho was diagnosed as a risk to himself but not to others should not have been the excuse that allowed him to flounder. Freedom of choice cannot be given to someone who is too sick to make rational choices. It was the consequence of apathy and collective neglect that permitted a sick individual like
Cho to charter his own course. The result consequently was the tragic deaths of 33 souls thus Cho too was included as a victim.

Please, if you can, take the photo of that mass murderer off your home page. I just can't look at hiom any longer! You already had him up there for a whole week. He ruins my day. He already ruined so many lives.....please he doesn't deserve to be on Aish.com!

I am upset and disturbed to see the face of the person who destroyed so many lives whenever I open to aish.com for "chizuk" and a inspiration. The article may be relevant to the times but, maybe there's another picture that could be used?

Dear Rabbi,
Is a mentally ill person responsible for his actions? I am curious to know what the Jewish viewpoint is. Thank you.

#1 What abt the guy who jumped out of the empire state bldg a few weeks ago and killed himself, is he forgiven for murdering himself since he too had mental illness? we gave him a regular funeral and buried him in the regular cemetery even though it was 'suicide' cuz we 'forgive' him and say it wasn't his 'fault' since he had mental illness?!?
#2 Why are so many of us getting all sensitive about seeing his picture? are we really so careful about what our eyes see?

SOMETIMES I THIN K THE WORLD HAS DEFFINITELY GONE MAD. IF SUCH A MAN SHOULD EVER BE FORGIVEN WHY NOT FIND UNDERSTANDING FOR THE HISSBALLAH OR OTHER MURDERERS ?? IS IT IN THE QUANTITY ??? WHERE DOES THE THIN LINE BETWEEN 32 OR 3.200 LIE???WOULD HE HAVE HAD MORE TIME HE MIGHT HAVE KILLED MORE ??? I'M CERTAINLY SURPRISED AT THE STONE AND THE FLOWERS HAS ANYONE TRIED TO FIND OUT WHETHER THOSE WHO TRIED TO JUSTIFY HIM ARE OTHERS AWAITING THEIR TURN ??? IT CAN'T, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, BE A NORMAL REACTION TO SUCH INNOCENT BLOOD SHED !!!!!
ANNY MATAR
ISRAEL

Forgiveness can mean different things. Those affected by this disaster---those still alive---can choose, with time, to release their anger at this murderer as either an act of compassion to him, or for their own peace of mind. One could consider that forgiveness. Cho himself, it seems, cannot do any kind of act like teshuva; it is up to God to forgive him and decide his ultimate fate.

As for the memorial, I am reminded of something I heard about the Columbine massacre, where a little memorial was made with a small cross stuck in the ground for each of the murdered victims, and then two other crosses, which were black, that merely lay on the ground near them, rather than standing. That kind of thing strikes me as a proper memorial---yes, even Cho's death was a tragedy, and his loved ones are surely mourning him; but he does not deserve to be placed with the other memorials, as if they were on the same moral standing.

God bless.

there is ample evidence that this individual was not crazy....

there is a fashionable trend afoot in the US, and elsewhere, to account to any horrific act, of which we have difficulty understanding the motive, to mental defect. In other words, the very fact that someone did such a horrendous act *proves* that they were crazy. This has become the defense de'jour for all such individuals and the courts are giving it a pass ...

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Forgiveness is for someone who is living. Forgiving someone who is dead is pointless, futile and useless. Pity for this person is equally void in such a situation and serves only to enable some folk to feel piously superior, sadly, tragically.

If one who is living was effected by this person's actions then they need to come to terms with the reality that hate or fear of this person is irrational, and deal with focusing on those in this life, not on one who is dead. Such hate immensely affects one individual, the one who hates. The innocent victims of such hate are often the family and friends of the one who chooses to hate. The supposed (by the individual who hates) purpose of hate is to punish, exclude or harm the one hated. This is as impossible as it is to forgive that person.

I have deep compassion for the parents of this person. It is entirely possible that there are those who have chosen to hate them. This is wrong, terribly, painfully and horrifically wrong. In that case forgiveness is both possible and necessary for both parties.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Please Please Please stop puting up pictures of the murderers on your Holly website.

These souls are dead, and Cho can't undo what he did. He cannot make up for anything. Staying angry will do no good. That said I think you are right he is not a victim.

I think it is possible he did not have free will *if* he was psychiatrically ill, which appears to be the case, given all the reports I have read. He had been held for observation at a psych hospital and told to go for outpatient treatment and to get psychotropic medication. He didn't go, doubtless because he was episodic, and delusional. It is hallmark of paranoid schizophrenia to have NO SELF-INSIGHT to the fact one is sick.

There needs to be a campaign to make mental healthchecks mandatory and to give the hospitals the power to hold paranoid schizophrenics and schizoaffective people during psychotic episodes and for mandatory treatment of these two disorders - and better & more effective medications, because when such people are suffering episodes they are frequently a danger to themsleves and others. There is a movement in Canada for checking up on mental health. It's called "Check Up From The Neck Up" but it doesn't seem - unfortunately - to include any form of schizophrenia. :-(

If one is delusional how can one use one's free will?

Why Hashem made schizophrenia, I do not know.

It is left to HaShem to decide this man's fate, along with the lives he took that tragic day. He impacted so many lives. This man was in trouble and there are cracks in the system to prevent this type of incident. He calculated his plan in advance. He was in so much pain, he felt relieved to inflict that pain onto others, anyone who happened to be in his reach. Forgiveness is divine. We have the capacity, but that takes time for some people, while others can readily give it. It is out of our hands in this particular case. But prevention from this happening again is something we can work to prevent in the future. People can have legitimate pain, but there are so many ways to deal with it constructively without ever resorting to this type of violence. This was the most extreme violence one human can inflict on another, and to someone you don't even know -- random violence is not in itself justifiable. Whether this man had brain damage, chemical imbalance, or a combination of both, and/or maltreatment by others doesn't justify what he did, but had he received treatment for whatever was going on inside him, this may never have hapened. Speculation will never resolve what happened here. The ones left behind, the family, friends, students and campus personnel at Virginia Tech and like settings, need our attention and prayers. These are the very people we can help. Let's focue on the here and now and let others find ways to prevent this from happening again. This young man was lost amongst us, but how can reach someone who won't let you in? So many beautiful young lives whose potentials were not allowed to come full circle we will never know -- that is a great monumental loss.

May the survivors come to full terms and be at peace with themselves.

I agree with you Rabbi. He was not a victim, he was not forced to murder he made a choice to premeditate murder. I feel he should be forgotten and the ones murdered by his hand should be remembered. I agree with the first post here, "Please put in a different picture than this murderers face." Put a picture of the victims up.

Please put in a different picture than this murderers face.

Only those whose lives he took, can forgive him. Their families can forgive him for pain he caused THEM if they choose to, but not for the lives he took. Those lives belong to a Higher Power. What hutzpa!

I agree Rabbi that we MUST condemn these 33 murders, without delay, condemn. Cho had a choice and could have chosen to do 32 acts of kindness, or 33 (one for himself). At the same time we must avoid putting all the blame on him. Many people picked on Cho, because he was different. Many could have shown him kindness, instead of ridicule or indifference. Many could have prevented the easy availability of the weapons he purchased.
The story of Job comes to mind. One person finally broke thru Job's melancholy to convince him of G-d's love, to break him of his narrow focus on bleakness and pessimism. Self-hatred and other-hatred are the same thing. We have a responsibility to each other and to our selves to promote love of self and others, even if we have to push for the recognition of the good that G-d gives us every moment of every day.
Thank you for asking the question.
Sincerely,
Yoshe :)

Who are we to forgive the gunman? I grieve for his parents, he was also a human, their child. But we are not able to forgive him. Even the families of the victims are not able to forgive. Only those whose lives he took, can forgive him. Even Gd doesn't forgive until the victims do. How can the gunman even do the last part of complete tshuva: acknowledging, apologizing and never doing it again?

I think that there was a segment in your clip that you are mistaken about (unless if you were sarcastic). You said that he was mentally deranged - it's not his fault. It was his fault. He killed 32 people, and it's not his fault? Then who's fault is it? Certaintly it wasn't the teachers? Or the students themselves, who didn't happen to fight back? It was Cho's fault that he was mentally deranged. Look at what this world is bringing to the students of America. Games about shooting, where you can act as real live person, and shoot policemen, civilians...Pornography...all the junk that liberals "pro-choice". Yes, it was his choice to attack the 32 - it was bin Laden's choice at 9.11, too. So if someone decides to kill 3000 people, it's his choice, and he has the freedom to do it? Or even 32 people. Or even the two students in his apartment. They have the freedom to live. He does not have the freedom to kill.

Thanks,

Daniel

P.S. I am not trying to attack you or anything. It just annoys people that they all say that its not his fault. He had mental problems...Those mental problems didn't exist 25, 35 years ago. Even after WWII and other wars, people did not go around shooting everybody they liked to. Thanks for your comments, Rabbi. I really appreciate them (most of them). Again, if you were sarcastic, please disregard this comment.

Do we really need to see this guy's picture yet again, especially on this web site of all places ??! Please replace it with something else or nothing at all. Please.

I hear what the rabbi is saying, but perhaps he would feel differently had he ever been close with someone who had a mental illness. If he had, he would know that a mental illness very often makes a person do things they never would normally do. It is as if they are possessed, taken over by something beyond their control. It's very scary. And then when the illness loosens its grip, they are allowed to come back to reality. I had posed the question to rabbis--was there free will? And the answer--Only G-d knows. I feel that judgement of the person, the neshama, is not our business. Obviously what this murderer did was evil--but is his neshama guilty? We do not know what chemicals in his brain were active at the time. Maybe he gave in the yetzer hara, maybe he was powerless in the face of a frightening illness. May Hashem have mercy on his soul.

I agree it may be wrong to add his stone to the memorial, as it could hurt and offend the surviving relatives. As far as the murderers actions...He was deemed mentally ill by the Virginia court system after stalking two women, and then let free, after being 'encouraged' to seek out-patient therapy. I don't know if he should be held responsible (actually, halachikly a mentally ill patient is not held responsible for his actions in any way), but it seems to me the state of Virginia 's court system should definitely be held responsible.

Rabbi Salomon, I could not agree with you more. I can not add to what you have spoken.

Kol ha'miracheim al ha'achzarim, sofo li'achzor al ha'rachmonim!

May the families and loved ones involved be given the strength to bear this challenge.
I would feel like dying if I were the mother/wife/sister/daughter of one of the murdered and the murderer given equal compassion, and a place next to those taken away from us. G-d forbid.
I'm sure If I was, I would physically remove the memorial for the 33rd!
This missplaced compassion equates to turning the other cheek! It too is sick.
The mere fact of even thinking about going out and killing anyone is a symptom of being sick. This was no accident.
There should be no place for the taker of lives anywhere near those 32 who we have lost.

Im saddened by what has happened at VT. In a way I feel sorry for the murderer too. Certainly I would not want to be in his shoes when he stands before G-d. When that happens G-d may even forgive him and I would not be suprised. I am shocked however by the people who are saying he SHOULD be forgiven!!. That is crazy! What he did was evil - it cannot be excused so easily. He killed in cold blood and will have to give account before G-d. People must accept that G-d may hold this man accountable for each and every life which he extinguished!! That goes for every murderer!