The Pope: Pius or Not?

First, it is not the matter of human being to decide who is saint and who is not, Catholics do, and they have their own religious laws. If we have a look at the Bible to see what G.d means to be saint for men,we read in Exodus 19:6 "a people dedicated to me alone". I agree with Marga that there are all around the world an uncountless number of saints who gave their life to save lives in doing what they could, not caring about their own interests. In most cases only G.d knows their names. Personally I think the pope should have done more for saving Jews, as he had some power, and he is not a "saint", because if we do not what is in our possiblities to help someone, we have no love, except for ourselves.

How many major rabbis would stand up and vigorously protest the persecution of Catholics?

Pardon me for not reading everyone's comments before commenting here...with a most hurtful timing as now to build up one faith while inflicting more prejudice on the Jewish people by insisting on a sainthood when so many precious souls are nameless saints in the holocaust, is a cruel insult. Does it say somewhere that the rich already have their glory, and God will gently kiss the humble servant with a "well done my good and faithful one" upon death to this life. Please friends, do not be concerned much over this insensitive move of catholics, they are not sure of themselves or God.

No, what will it matter one way or the other? Are we as Jews going to let them come dictate how we deal with our faith?

While it is true that Pius could have done more (as could so many other people), the reality is that who the Catholics choose to canonize is not our business. They have a completely different system for analysing what occurs after death and since it is unreasonable to evaluate their culture with respect to ours, I feel they should be left to make their own decisions.

I think this is mostly a Church matter, and if we want their respect then we ought to respect them. This beatification shouldn't surprise anyone, and well, if this pope did something to the benefit of his people and they feel they should make a saint out of him, so be it. It's their decision, but we should still tell our side of the story until the Vatican decide to open their files on the subject. I think that there are currently more important problems than this, and since anti-Semitism in on the raise all over the world, it may be a good idea not to meddle in the Church's matters, and to try to keep them on our side this time.

It seems to me if one is considered to be a saint, that person should be way above and beyond the norm. If Pope Pius XII does not fit this criteria, he should not receive the honor of being made a saint. That's my opinion, Nancy

Great article - something to really think about! The overwhelming evidence seems to indicate that Pope Pius XII didn't do enough. Please consider the sitaution in January 1943 during the middle of World War 2, Pope Pius would again refuse to publicly denounce the Nazi violence against Jews. This is even after requests to do so from Wł,adysł,aw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, and Bishop Konrad von Preysing of Berlin. Pope Pius may have done a little - but lacked the moral strength that a true leader must possess.

A Very interesting Piece. Just I feel I must point out a small error in what anonymous comment #31, although I agree with his/her comment in principle. Most scholars hold it is legend that King Christian X the King of Denmark never wore a Jewish star it is a legend, although the King rallied the Danes and helped to oppose the Nazis. The vast majority of Danes and their illustrious and brave King Christian X showed moral courage and ingenuity rescuing almost all of the 7,000 Jews of pre war Denmark. Contrast the guts and moral courage King Christian X had and the lack of moral backbone Pope Pius XII had. What a world of difference!

I'm a bit surprised to see so many people so rabid in their dislike for Pope Pius. I won't pretend to be a major expert here, but I just can't help but wonder: what absolutely horrible thing did he do? Nothing as far as I can tell. The whole argument is what he might have been able to do, but didn't. Which is valid, don't get me wrong, perhaps he could have done more, I really don't know. But would the Israeli government deny someone Righteous Among the Gentile status because, while they saved a hundred Jews, they could maybe have saved one hundred and fifty, if only they had tried a little harder? Would people object if the U.S. government were doing something to honor FDR, since, after all, he neglected to bomb the Auschwitz train tracks and thus forfeited the right to any honor? One should always strive to do the most good they can, but there is a difference between not being perfectly good and being evil. God bless.

Rav Yaakov: the pope may have been a timid man in the midst of the war, but he certainly was aware of the nazi cardinals in his staff, & he did not get them out of interference in affairs, the Catholic orders & individuals that helped our people, did it in spite of the Pope, not because of his open opinion, if he had one he kept it secret to himself, if the evilman was a member of his shul, he could have been effective in diminishing the effects ofthe shoah, ignorance & indiference keeps the manout of the list of being a tzaddik, the equivalent to their sainthood, he does not deserve such treatment, but their list includes many awful sinners,it is no longer relevant who is there, but that should not keep the world jewish community to voice an opinion, as for example Bonheffer that was excluded from our list of just among nations with the idea that he opposed the nazis on nationalist ground, not on moral issues (he deserves to be included in our lists-but he was not a catholic) this si my opinion, thanks for asking

As a convert to Judaism from being raised very strict Catholic, I find it most disturbing that they would want to appease themselves and to think that they were heroes when I believe more could have been done to protect and safeguard the jews. As we read in 'our' own people, our very own Rabbis like Rashi, Ramban etc. who literally gave their bodies and lives for the sake and truth of judaism. This to me says volumes more than a mere excuses or justification of he (the pope) wanting more honor.

Many lives, from Jews to Soldiers, were lost because all kinds of people did not step up and say something. Let's learn from this and not let it happen again. As for him beind a saint, I think the whole catholic structure is disfunctional at varying levels.

THere is a subtle difference between Christians and catholics. The catholic church has a lot to answer for, and a lot of it is anti-semitic. The catholic church believes that the catholic church replaced the Jews as God's people. This is unbiblical, but explains why there is so much anti-semitism fuelling catholic history (and present). That the vatican wants to ultimately canonise Pius clearly shows where their values are. It is an affront to God's people, the Jews. Nothing less.

In all honesty I find it diffcult to understand why, after the Catholic Chucrh's already horrendous 2,000 year history of anti-semitism, we should take offense at their desire to beatify (and by the way, the word is pronounced bee-a'-ti-fi-ca-tion, rather than "beautification") yet another pope. The Church's continued refusal to own up to this history would seem far more troubling and relevant than how they choose to select members of their pantheon. I'm fairly sure there are already many far more viciously anti-semitic members of this dubious Hall of Fame. A good book on the topic is Daniel Goldghagen's "A moral Reckoning". While critics have assailed his apparent sloppy history on a variety of lesser details, his main thesis remains largely intact.

Canonisation of Pius XII should concern Jews because it is yet another indication of the Vatican's retreat from building bridges to Judaism, its "elder brother". (Another example was the Stations of the Cross in Sydney during youth week, much against the spirit of Vatican II) Not every pope is a saint and the only miracle that might be considered worthy of sainthood which I can discern in Pius XII, is his ability to stand erect without a backbone. Pius' fear of Communism is not an excuse for his silence on the murder of Jews, he could have spoken out, he should have spoken out. "Saint Pius" will be a good indication of the Vatican and its position with regard to Jews and Mohammedans. Silence be our leaders is not an option.

I have read some things about the issue and my feeling is that Pius did not do very much to save Jews. In fact I believe he did next to nothing and could have done so much more. Before becoming the pope in the late 1930's, Pius' job was the Papal Nuncio to Germany. He was the Vatican ambassador to Germany. He met with many high level German officials. I refuse to believe he could not have used those contacts to save Jews. Raoul Wallenberg of Sweden, Sugihara of Japan, and Varian Fry of the United States saved some Jews. If Pius would have tried, he could have saved many more. One way to resolve this issue is to simply open the Vatican archives so Jewish historians and scholars could research the issue of Pius' wartime actions or inactions on behalf of European Jewry. The Vatican has constantly refused to open the archives. What are they hiding? I also feel that caring about this issue is a waste of time. Was Pius the only pope to turn a blind eye to Jewish suffering? The current pope was a member of the Hitler youth. He recently added liturgy that is offensive to Jews. The previous pope met with that terrorist murder Arafat. The church gave the Jews the Spanish Inquisition, pogroms, expulsions, etc. On the way to Israel the Crusaders sharpened their swords on thousands of innocent Jews throughout Europe. If the Vatican wants to honor Pius, would this be the first thing they did that is offensive to Jews?

Documentory's of the time period show how he was complicite in the conspiracy to kill jews. The Cardinal of Vienna was the first to vote for annexation of Austria to Nazi Germany,upon exiting the voting place he gave the Nazi salute! The Pope was silent!!!

MIRIAM

Unclear why Jews have something to think about regarding Vatican"s choice of Saint.. Since when does the vatican take into consideration whether the Jews approve of their decisions. we know the truth/facts and sholud recorded as such.

You know what being a real leader is? Stepping up when no one else will. Yes, he did do that on rare occasion. He had the power to save so many and yet he used his power to protect himself because he was "scared". A real leader would rather die saving others than live knowing he let them die. We know who the real heroes of the war are, the ones that risked everything to help others. You should care because if you don't, who will? Gentiles forget easily, Jews are forced to remember, we say 6 remembrances daily even though they are from the old days - you need to stay involved with these matters before it becomes "history."

If Catholics whant to beleive in Saints that is there problem. For us he will always be a person. Lets worry about Jewish affairs.

Pope pio 12 helped many Nazis to escape to Argentina, Brazil and other south american countries.

Why should it matter if there is one more idol in the Catholic church? Did you know that they pray to their "saints" thinking that "saints can somehow do them favors? There are differences in some of the christian churches, but the Catholics make their "saints" into idols. Why should ANY other religion care if these people have any more or any fewer idols to worship?

I have spoken to many Holocaust survivors here in Melbourne Australia. My Dad may he be well is also a Holocaust survivor. Most of the survivors I speak with condemn Pope Puis for not having the moral backbone to make strenuous protests to the Nazis. Contrast Pope Puis weak and feeble and half hearted protests to the righteous King of Denmark's response. The King wore the Yellow Star in defiance of the Nazis and this help to galvanize the opposition to the Nazis expulsion of the Jews and the rescue of the majority of the small Jewish community in Denmark during the early part of the Second World War. (Interestingly also some Holocaust survivors in Melbourne from the Cracow (Krakow) region of Poland personally knew the Polish Pope John Paul II and describe him in favourable terms especially some of his resistance activities during World war 2 and his good behaviour after the War. Pope John Paul is supposed to returned at least 1 Jewish kid hidden in a Catholic monastery to his Jewish relatives after World war2.)

We must remember that Italian citizens gave a big help to the Jews during the German invasion in 1943. The Catholic Church helped to collect the gold that Kappler demanded in order to avoid deportation. There were very brave and merciful priests (many honoured by Yad Vashem)that sheltered Jews in there churches and convents. We must remember that Italy is the only European country where the Jews went back after the war because they felt that they were supported by there fellow citizens. May be it was because of the Catholic Church and the Pope. May be he didn´t do enough, but he did. Many other politicians at wartime did not do anything to prevent the deportations and mass murders.

I think the first minute and the last minute of your talk gives the answer. It happened fifty years ago. and although we should never forget, if they want to make him a saint, why should we care. If they feel that this will better their beliefs in a person, so be it. I am sure that history will show that their have been worse crimes by those who attained sainthood then this man.

In ancient Rome, there were many gods. When Catholocism/Christianity took hold, those in power feared that the populace could not or would not worship just one god. The solution, create saints to take the place of the gods, so the people can have more than just one to pray too. Now why should we Jews, who do not believe in this, care if the Catholics canonize one more saint or not? We so not want the Catholics interfering in our religion, and we should give them the same deference. Whether we respect their decisions or not is something we can discuss if we want to, but ultimately it is none of our business.

I an if the WWII generation and I am a very dedicated Jewish man. I have all sorts of views on other religions as well as my own and I certainly have very strong feelings about the Shoah. I believe that Pius did even less than this video gives him credit for BUT I also feel that his beatification and Sainthood are very literally, NONE OF MY BUSINESS. As Jews we have a long and often painful history of persecution and the denial of our right to religious freedom and practice and although I am not a religious person I have strong feelings in this arena also. I think that give our history we have no right to tell other religious groups what to beliefe or do. Our only right is to practice our religion as we choose. So I really feel that we need to stay out of the buiness of the Catholic church and certainly not disrupt the ecumenical relationship that has been developed between us in recent years.

Perhaps the Pope was not a sinner, but he surely was not a saint. Where was his conscience? A man of God must be willing to sacrifice, even his own life, to honor the wishes of his Maker -- to love one another as one loves one'self. And to protect all who are created in G-d's image. Too many priests and nuns died because of his silence. Perhaps not castigate him for his silence, but to beatify? Never!

Personally, I do not have much respect for the church. The history of the church has been a haven for anti-semitism and it is hard for me to let go of this history. Other than that, the Church fathers should apologize and pray for forgiveness for their xenophobia, the inquisition, and the terrible wrongs that was perpetrated to non-Christians, to the Jewish people and to existing Catholics both past and present for their resistance to moderation i.e. Gali.leo

Rabbi, the Pope is being considered for "beautification"? I guess when you've been dead 50 years, you can use all the cosmetic help you can get.

Perhaps readers should read Rabbi David Dalin's book "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" for a defence of Pius XII from a Jewish scholar. Churchill's biographer, Martin Gilbert, another Jewish historian, is of the same opinion. The Pope saved many Jews. My in laws got out of Nazi Germany with the help of pious catholics.

When an individual with political power fails to live up to his responsibility, that individual should be held accountable by the groups which gave him that power. When those power bestowing groups fail to accept accountability, then larger groups, perhaps the world, must render judgement. The Catholic Church does not have the final say in this matter. Civilization does.

The Pope's silence during the Holocaust is a huge tragedy,and a lesson to leaders to have the courage to speak up against injustices,before it is too late.

Yes. The decisions made by the Catholic Church have an effect on the non-Catholic world too. The book "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell, is an interesting book to read about Pope Pius XII and his policies. Pope Pius XII was born Eugenio Pacelli, he became what some call the 'world's most influential churchman' from he early 30's to the late 50's. To Quote from the book: "The story begins 3 decades before he became Pope. Among the many initiatives in his diplomatic career, Pacelli was responsible for a treaty with Serbia which contributed to the tensions that led to the 1st world war. 20 years later he struck an accord with Hitler which helped sweep the Fuhrer to legal dictatorship while neutralizing the potential of Germany's 23 million Catholics (34 million after the Anschluss)to protest and resist." I agree with a previous poster that the church saying he is a saint doesn't really make him a saint, just as saying the cook took the calories out of the apple pie doesn't really mean there are no calories in it. Do Jews have a voice in who the Catholic Church names as a saint, no! But, who the Church chooses to name as a Saint, does say quite a bit about what the Catholic Church values.

We should certainly recognize and appreciate what We should certainly appreciate the good that Pope Pius did do for the Jews, but given how much more he COULD have done and how many other "righteous Christians" there were, I don't believe he should be considered for Sainthood anymore than Schindler, Wallenberg etc. should be!

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS. MY HEART BREAKS FOR THOSE AFFECTED BY THE HOLOCAUST. I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND DON'T BELIEVE IN ELECTING "SAINTS" AND AM GRIEVED THAT POPE PIUS DID NOT DO WHAT HA SHEM REQUIRED OF HIM AS A WORLD LEADER......BUT MY QUESTION IS.....WOULD YOU RISK YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF YOUR LOVED ONES FOR ME AND MY FAMILY IF THE TIME WOULD EVER COME?

We should certainly keep insisting on viewing the Vatican archives in order to find out the truth about Pope Pius before he is declared a saint by the Catholic Church. If the Church knows that he is free of blame, they should open the archives.If they prevent us from viewing the documents, we should keep protesting.

We know that anti-sematism was endemic in Germany way before the Nazis. whilst the Pope held no sway over the Protestants there was so much he could have done to asway the german Catholic clergy from their active support of the Nazis Jewish policy from 1933 onwards. This was also an indication of the Catholic church's traditional medieval beliefs about the evil of Jewry. The Nazis took this medieval superstition and elevated it to a new level of hatred. Maybe the Pope was afraid to speak out more but it seems to me that for a person to be a saint he has to put himself on the line a little. Did R. Akivah play safe when they tortured him to death, there was a true saint. Let them have their saint and we wish them well of it.

Pius XII certainly does not qualify for sainthood, even if he was instrumental in saving a few Jews. It concern us Jews because it becomes a precedent for other possible candidates for sainthood who were more clearly antisemitic.

yes, I have done my research and yes, I have found many of these church fathers to be vicious against jews-it's all there in black and white in their writings. By the way,very sadly to say,many of the most vicious antisemites throughout our history,were indeed jews who converted to christianity and turned against their people-hopefully this will educate you somehow

It's really very simple - ignore what the vatican does and make sure we set the record straight at Yad Vashem. That's our business. They have objected to what is written under his name, we can say to that, "we minded our business when you canonized him, now you mind your business as we tell the truth as we see it." Simple as that.

It has been pointed out that the photo of Pope Pius passing "Nazi" soldiers is misleading. The photo dates from the days of the German Weimar Republic that preceded the Third Reich.

Who cares and why should I care? Why is this something to think about? What the Christians do in these matters has no interest to me. No one should worry- he's not a saint no matter what the church wills.

it may not be any of our business if he will indeed be canonized, is our educated or uneducated voice going to make any difference in the Vatican!? or anywhere else? we can not control others, but we, WE as jews must continue to find out HOW to keep on 'being a light unto others' - so the question is not should we have any influence on Pious' canonization but HOW to be a better Light NOW. Is not the state of this World a reflection of where we are ourselves? are we not taught if we (as jews) don't like what we see, it is because WE need to improve OURSELVES? aish/or sameach/chabad,etc. are doing an amazing job, the aish Rabbis are fantastic, and the rest of us may need to speed things up a notch, in our own lives' We are not in control We are not alone When we learn and study the sins of different generations (eg. the sins of the generation of the holocaust) I hope we can learn not just how to prevent another holocaust, but how to bring on Moshiach once and for all. And do it. Amen.

And he was right to worry.Communism was bad for all religions a specialy for jews. Communism killed off much more jews then Nazism could ever do. It killed our spirits, our believes and left us with bodies without disire to be jews. Do i think he is a saint NO but he was a good politician

Even though it might hurt our feelings to even concider making him into a Saint, honestly i dought it can hurt. I believe that from jewish point of view he was what he was, another person who idly stoode by while we were slaughtered. On the other hand non jews need positive influences. That small action of saving few jews might not be big enough in our eyes but to a non jew can enfluence their action and give them the curage to help us the next time we might need it. He might not be a Saint in our book but why not show off his good deed in order to inspire others. God knows we need it now more then ever.

Firstly, I agree that this really is not our business but the Catholics'. However, I would like to point out that the Christians generally and Catholics in particular define "sainthood" differently from us Jews. Just look at the hundreds of saints currently on record and at the reasons that they were sainted! I too am no expert but some histories which have fallen my way indicate that sainthood can be confered for any number of reasons having no connection with actual virtue, such as bizare behaivor claimed to be "advertizement" for Jesus and a corpse being found unexpectedly with nothing known of the actual person or cause of death. These are just two of the reasons I have found for the conferring of sainthood by the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, not related to ethical behaivor. Is today really any different?

Uri, you have no idea what you're talking about. Please go do some research on the Early Church and then speak once you have educated yourself. Some of these people who you accuse of being antisemitic were Jews.

Dear Rabbi Salamon

Here in Manchester Uk we look forward to your visits inspiring us, and giving us direction, may you continue your holy work with nachas and health till 120 you have a huge zechus.

On this point my humble opinion is that we are in exile and thus we must keep low profile, therefore on this issue publicly we must remain silent.

On the one hand, this is an internal Catholic issue and one could argue we ought not be involved. On the other hand, some in the Catholic recently spoke out, urging Yad Vashem to edit the caption that appears under Pope Pius, in their memorial to the Six Million. On this point I believe we are entitled to set the historical record straight. That can be done best when the Vatican opens all its records to historians, which it has not yet done. Until then we can only accord with the best that scholars have to offer based upon available information. This information includes the fact that the Pope did not, even once, publicly protest treatment of 'the Jews' by 'the Germans'. His notable and very public statement at the end of December 1942, after news of the Holocaust was officially recognized in the Western World, did include a plea for assistance to 'helpless victims' but, notably, left out 'the Jews,' the most desperate and fast disappearing enemies of the Reich. Nor did he make clear that it was 'the Germans' who were doing the unprecendented murdering. This is disturbing. Nor did he at any other time, to my knowledge, specifically single out treatment of 'the Jews' for attention. He did, admirably and effectively, call Admiral Horthy in 1944 to end the deportations, when the Jews of Budapest were still alive. But, again, he did not mention 'Jews' in his remarks to Horthy. And he did help save Jews in and around Rome, through private channels as well as in the Vatican. It bears mentioning that two of the most effective reasons given for his policy are absent from your presentation. (1) He feared Communist takeover of Rome more than German presence in the city. Communism is an unalterable enemy of the church and he had reason to fear what influence they would/might bring to bear. This was most notable during the period of the roundup of Rome's Jews when he was painfully silent. The reason is understandble. But it must be weighed against the moral responsibility of someone viewed as a distinguised emissary of God, to save innocents who he knew very well would be turned to ash within days in the ovens of Auschwitz.(2) He feared punishing or excommunicating German Catholics. They were at the time the most educated, intellectually valued and 'cultured' members of his vast church.

Rabbi Salomon, most of the early church fathers were staunch antisemites in their deeds and in their writings, and were elevated to sainthood. Why do we care if they make this pope a saint or not?. It is a matter of their own doctrine and does not influence our beliefs whatsoever

This has nothing to do with us. Why should we feel more enraged if they give him sainthood and he could've done more? They'll think of him the same way, whether for good or for bad, and the title won't do much to change that. Many people put FDR on a high pedestal, too. Try explaining to them what he could've done to help the Jews...they'll still look at him the same way. This is not our concern, it's their business, and lets focus on our own lives. It's not worth the high blood pressure

Even though Pope Pius was usually ineffective of saving Jews from the hands of the Nazis, didn't speak out enough, and probably doesn't deserve the status of sainthood, we as Jews have survived. This is because G-d has made it clear that He would never turn His back on the Jews. The problem is, Christian theology in the New Testament does teach hatred to the Jews. What's also disturbing is that many Jews during and after the holocaust were converted to Christianity and the Vatican has failed to disclose such records. I'm not sure if these records were shredded and destroyed, but there are many Christians who eventually find out they are actually Jewish where their Jewish identity has been forgotten after the holocaust, and they don't find out until a later age when remaining records surface...As for me, I know I'm Jewish because my whole family is Jewish as well, and I'm glad that we ultimately survive every generation such people rise against us, since we are resourceful enough to pass over to the following generation. As for Pope Pius, based on what Rabbi Solomon has suggested, he must have been very intimidated to save Jews from going to concentration camps because the Nazi mentality was that "those who serve Jews are traitors to his people." It is often said that good people who do nothing are worse than the perpetrators committing such horrid crimes against humanity...While there are those who object to Israel can be perceived as just as bad as any other anti-Semite, a more appropriate question would be "what does it mean to stand with Israel and the Jewish people?"...I just get so tired of missionaries soliciting Christianity to me, which often occurs with Xmas time coming up. All in all, with idolatry and practices that are ultimately paganism, comes polorization and hatred, and with Tanakh in Judaism and B'nei Noach can come peace and hope.