When Eight is Not Enough

As orthodox jewish know that every detail of the world and universe down to the minutest detail, is divinely directed and guided, so is this occurence. We can only pray that the mother raises all her children and their pure souls to be a benefit to society and the world.

Sorry to post twice but please stop comparing this woman to an Orthodox family. Yes, it could be argued that the families in Meah Sharim have more kids than they can afford due to a system set up in Israel to support them. But these are families who have a religious mission and are helping keep the population of Israeli Jews up. Many of their kids do serve in the military and choose to do things other than study Torah. I am sure they all live without any luxuries, but the kids are fed and clothed and educated. They are not born in litters. Suleman had a litter of children for the purpose of getting her own bite at fame. She expects to be getting rich off of these kids, as evidenced by her shopping around for television sponsors. I would die of shock if I discovered that a woman in Mea Sharim had had plastic surgery to look like a movie star or if they would court the media to make money off of their kids. And here in the US I know dozens of families with 6 to 12 kids a piece. The family next door to me keeps on cranking them out despite mom working as a nurse part time. They have a nice house that dad is renovating in his spare time, the kids are always nicely dressed and clean. Grandpa watches them while mom is at work. They look fed and happy, although I wish they wouldn't play so loudly! This family has 8 children and more on the way, but they are supporting these kids and can care for them. No expensive vacations or new cars. No pricey clothes or dinners out. But they can maintain their large kosher family just fine. And they aren't asking TLC to pay them for filming rights!

None of us know all the facts about Ms. Suleman so I cannot comment. What I will say is that Orthodox Jews and Mormons will feel the backlash of this, because people who might have been discreet or embarrassed to offer an opinion, are suddenly emboldened to loudly condemn large families (sometimes in front of the children themselves!). My daughter, a mother of a large family with small children close in age, now feels very self-conscious when she is with her children in public, due to extremely hostile and nasty comments made against her for having a large family. Some of the comments are financially motivated (accusing her of using taxpayer dollars to "enrich" her family), some of them are simply anti-Semitic ("just what we don't need - more Jews in the world") etc etc. As far as the financial point of view, we can be rich one day and poor the next - or vice versa, and I don't think this should be an exclusive deciding factor as to whether someone should or shouldn't have children. I am also continually amazed by the public adoration of Angelina Jolie/Bradd Pitt and their adopted children, just because they are affluent and glamorous. Any mother know that a child needs a stabile environment and a regular schedule. Yet their children have no real permanent home, just a series of rented and owned villas around the world, where they are shlepped from time zone to time zone, their body clocks and any sense of permanence, or the ability to make friends with their peers in school disrupted. This imo is serious child neglect and borderline abuse! Yet people are blinded by the "star" factor and so these so-called parents are immune from condemnation.

The doctor who performed this precedure should have his practise shut down and his license confiscated. This woman should either be in jail or locked up in a mental ward. Its a wonderful thing to want to have a family but not at the expense of the tax payers. She should have been employed or at least married. Now I here she is going into forclosure. She endangered her kids lives through this. I pity the woman but I don't condone her actions. We are stuggling to survive amid the economic downturn. Many of us have lost jobs. Why should the government award her with financial grants through our tax dollars? It isn't fair for us and for those who are trying to make ends meet with very little to no grants at all. We have families too but at least we take the initiative to support our children rather than having others assume for our parental responsibilities. These children should be seized from her by Child Protection Services the way they were seized from the Mormon community in Texas. Plus she should be sterilized just to prevent us from going backrupted. These never married single women on welfare need to get a clue about the reality of child rearing.

It is unconscienable to have children when you have no means of supporting them. She is very selfish... The proper wasy would be to adopt the many children begging for a home.

I've seen so many comments about G-d blessing this woman or being the reason she has these kids and therefore should be allowed to do with them as she pleases. GIVE ME A BREAK. G-d doesn't hate children, and only a child hating entity would be directly responsible for this sort of trajedy. What about the kids born into extreme poverty, into disease, into abuse, into families that will sell them as child prostitutes? Is this all G-d's doing? On 20/20 they showcased Applachia in a Hidden America special (you can watch it online at ABC.com). Children born into extreme poverty, one after another, to mothers who are drug addicted, toothless, illiterate and unable to care for them. ANd they will grow up to do the same for their kids. or if you like TLC watch the Duggars going to El Salvador to bring food to families where the drunk father comes home just often enough to impregnate his wife with child number 10. Then he'll steal whatevr she has put away for the care and feeding of the other kids and won't come back until he's broke again. He'll force another baby on her and take food from his kid's mouths... IS THIS G-D??????? Is He the force behind this misery? I HOPE NOT. So an embryo or two split in Octo-mom's womb (I don't believe this lie) but if its true, big deal. G-d isn't a part of this. He gave us sense and abilities, life. But we're on our own, and we are on our own to make our own choices and take care of things ourselves. If we make terrible choices then they are our choices. If we make good ones and good things happen then it is only us using the good sense that G-d gave us, not his direct hand. If he played a direct role in this and in the birth of all the other kids into horrible situations then I'm done with him and hope to never be in his favor. It is up to us to protect children from abuse. Whether it is to protect Angela Sulaman's 14 children or to protect the children of the Sudan or in Appalachia or the kid down the street we must do our best to help them, to get them out and into proper homes. Giving birth does not make a woman a mother, doing the best she can for her children and giving of herself is. Hiring a publicist and agent, and trying to sell your story is not the rational act of a new mother. It is the act of someone who wants fame, and is willing to do it via her uterus risking the future happiness of 14 unfortunate human lives. In the latest news the already overly small home that Angela and her children live in, with her mother, is being foreclosed on. So now they will be homeless as well as motherless (Because she obviously doesn't love her kids.... she just wants her own little cult to adore her while her mother takes care of them all day). G-d does not provide, if he did then we wouldn't have so much povery and suffering. Please don't tell me that children deserve to suffer. It doesn't matter their religion, or their level of devotion. They aren't poor and starving b/c they don't believe in G-d. They are poor and starving in spite of it. If it was up to G-d to provide then why does he choose to provide fabulous wealth for some and widespread suffering for others? Why must some children be born into palaces and others into filfthy slums? People provide for people. People take more than they give. People have children, people provide for their children.

i think none of us should be playing g-d and none of us should judge this woman. allot of jewish families have 14-17 children and are being helped by tzdakah b"h. and we all say how amazing and wonderfu is that. im not compering jews to none jews but "ma nishtana ha 14 children haeilu" (besides being none jewish). the other thing is ,yes adoption is great but everybody wants their own children if they can have them. last thingif someone told you that one o these kids will be the next president or will convert or will save a bunch of lives i dont think people would talk so badly about this woman. so how about instead of thinking badly of this woman lets think of how to help and leave the rest to hashem.

You think we are in control? G-d was in control, is in control and will always be in control. He decides whether the implantation will work. He decides how many children will be born. And He decides each and every person's livelihood. G-d does not lack the means.

14 children to an unwed mother, all of whom are on welfare, in state that cannot afford to pay its own employees seems immoral. The tax dollars being spent on this could have kept state employees on the job, providing services to taxpayers, and having money to raise their families and their children. Instead, this tax money is going to pay for an unwed mother and her 14 children year, after year, after year. 8 premature children, costing thousands and thousands of dollars in health care when others cannot get proper medical care seems immoral. Having 14 children and expecting others to feed, clothe, educate, and provide for them because the mother is on welfare, seems selfish. How about some compassion for those who cannot afford medical care for things like cancer and heart disease, instead of squandering limited health care dollars on IV fertilization of a mother with other with six children. I do not presume to speak for G-d or understand why what happens in the world happens. It does seem wrong when so many are in want, to utilize limited resources on an extravagance such as IV fertilization and medical care for a mother and her 14 children.

This to is for the good.

Now we must pray that everyone will be provided for in a safe and loving way and that more wisdom will be used the next time.

Having children is a great blessing. This woman has a lot on her plate, but she has chosen to be a mom and we can only hope, for the sake of her children, that she will take her responsibility to heart. There are terrible, terrible horrors occuring in Africa right now, and in Arab countries. People are being murdered. Children are being forced to serve in armies. There is hatred, death, stealing, murder, drug abuse, child abuse. So many terrible things. Why are people focusing on a woman who wants to raise a beautiful family.

The best thing for these children is to be removed from the care of their mentally unstable Angelina Jolie wanna be mother and placed in the homes of responsible families who are unable to have children. This is a woman who had money for expensive IVF to have child after child after child. She had her nose and lips done to look more like her favorite movie star, while taking SSI and food stamp benefits. She sued for supposed back injuries that prevented her from working, but had the strength to voluntarily impregnate herself 7 times. Instead of using that money to feed and clothe her children she chose to go have even more children and to undergo cosmetic surgery. She then dumps half a dozen children on her elderly mother who has neither the energy nor the funds to take care of the children as well as they should be taken care of. The level of selfishness and uncaring for her children is evident in Miss Suleman. She is not the first nor the last neglectful mother. She is not the worst mother ever, but she is definately a member of the abusive/neglectful parents' club. ****The charity should be directed to these children. Somewhere there are childless families who will open their homes and hearts to these kids. The charity needs to directed to the families who can take care of these kids, they will definitely need a lot of medical care, ad may have developmental disabilities. The support and kindness and money should go to these families. Children's services should get our advocacy and support so that they can staff their offices with as many social work professionals as they need to service the multitudes of children waiting for someone to come to their door and rescue them from abuse and neglect. Where is the support for these hardworking people who devote their lives to making sure the Sulemans of the world aren't allowed to destroy the lives of innocent children who had no choice about being born to such horrible people. Unfortunately our conservative "life loving" budget cutting representatives have managed to erode the budgets and support availible to social services and children's services. Don't give money to Suleman, give your love and support to the people who will prevent her from destroying the children she birthed.... they don't deserve to be part of her circus.

I am troubled by this situation because it is a direct assault on the family ordained by the Holy One. If those of Torah do not judge this by the Torah, then where is the Light? The Torah ordains a family, it ordains that children are the fruit of a marraige covenant and a perpetuation of Torah's Light. It is ridiculous to judge the results of sin without first judging the sin. To so judge is not playing G=d, it is being the Light of the Holy One and His mercy to warn others not to follow Ms. Suleman's example. Though all life is sacred and miraculous, these 14 precious children are unholy in His sight, and is that not a greater injustice and sorrow? Were the Temple here today, they would not be allowed to enter. And who is lamenting that?

Well.. She may be a little wacked in the head, but I will admit... Big things come in small packages. Maybe the miracle of 8 babies is like a Chanukah miracle, one kid for each day we had extra oil in the temple!

Anonymous #51 commented that octuplets are a "feather in the cap" for the doctor. Please realize that the ideal standard in infertility treatment is to produce ONE baby...just ONE!!! Many couples (yes, COUPLES...but I will not address that here) will elect to put back more than one embryo during an IVF procedure so that they can "get it done all at once" by having twins because of the great expense....but the ideal is still ONE baby. The first person who is responsible for this is the doctor. All of these doctors have (or should have) screening processes in place to make sure that the person is an appropriate candidate for treatment. It would appear that this doctor just took the cash, consequences be d*mned. I hope that the state of California revokes his medical license...for good.

I feel sad for this woman. She thinks that because she is female it is her purpose to have children & that she does not have a purpose other than to have children. Therefore she has children, obsessively. Without them, in her eyes, she would have no value, no identity of her own. This may sound overboard, but I see it all around. Women who introduce themselves as so and so's wife or mother. When you have a job & identity that makes you part of society you are alive. Without a purpose you feel unalive, so you try to make one. She obviously decided not to opt for the route of an individual, but instead to live through her children & avoid the pain of going out into the world. She is caught, between lack of purpose & personal identity and feeling like her identity & purpose is defined by simply being female. I wonder what type of a conversationalist she is. Does she talk about what people did, events that have happened, or ideas that influence the world.

What is the context ? Is this woman wealthy enough to afford to pay for each egg implanted ? Is there something wrong with a doctor who has an oath to help those in pain ( seen or unseen). Superficially, some want plastic surgeries, others want babies. Again, waht is the complete context here. From that you can possibly uncover motivation of the woman and the doctor.There is something 'in it' for each of them, same as we are motivated. What's in it for me applies also to belief in Hashem by which one gets a good feeling.

Fourteen more are here. We have enough to fill three planets the size of ours. China has it right. Only one until our population stablizes at a reasonable number. Hashem commanded us to multiply. We did not know the word exponentiate then. He gave us the power to do it and the intelligence to avoid it. It is long past time to use a little of our intelligence.

It is our obligation to continue being our "brother's keeper," is it not?

Not only will this family live on what welfare will provide, but very likely will require extra mesical care and support as they grow up since there is a strong possibility that they will have disabilities requiring more than normal care. How selfish and devious the mother and Dr. are... their motives are truly suspect... and we will all pay the price!

Let each baby represent the life of 1 million babies erased from the womb through abortions that could have been prevented if mankind as a whole and as a rule understood how 'precious' life is no matter what the cause of conception. When we 'destroy' life we destroy the the divine opportunity that G-d's Heart, Spirit and Soul might be made more manifest in each person. G-d knows us from the womb, G-d alone knows the true potential that can come forth from each individual. But, He has asked for, and needs our help. What does He ask of us? That we love one another. Let us all continue to learn of what this love - His love really means.

I hope all those who value "life-uber-alles" responding to these messages will be more than happy to dish out ENTIRE paychecks to this woman first so I will not have to! Charity is an indispensible connection to G-d, yes, but we are NOT obligated to give a handout to each and every person that comes begging to us, for the very reason that they may, in fact, be dishonest!! We are, G-d help me, NOT obligated to give "charity" to irresponsible, selfish, narcissistic, mentally unsound women like Ms. Suleman! This is not charity, this is misplaced kindness! Go ahead, folks, open your wallet wider and wider for women like Ms. Suleman. I hope you are the last people on Earth to complain about wasteful government spending and outrageous taxes! People who are much more socially responsible in the US are already getting taxed out of their homes, and when more female welfare recipients like Ms. Suleman realize they can get a free ride, and that the life-uber-alles folks will be more than happy to support them, our entire population will need public assistance. What an honor to G-d, an entire society that lives on welfare!

What difference does it make? Every child born brings Mashiach even closer anyway, for the Gemara says that Mashiach will come when all the Neshamot in Shamayim that are meant to be brought down to this world are born already, so if anything, it would seem that she brought the Geula eight steps closer in one shot, so there's nothing to be upset about.

Ms. Suleman paid CASH to be implanted. Bet she paid according to, among other things, how many eggs were implanted in her uterus. I SUSPECT it was GREED on the physician's part to implant so many eggs. According to the newspapers, eight implantatins far exceeds what is "customary and usual". The physician is undergoing scrutiny by the Medical Board of Californai to see if he violated any standard of care (other than common sense). As for Ms. Suleman, she becomes the taxpayers' headache. If it were my say, I'd sterilize her (hysterectomy) She is a sicko. She had 6 kids already. Wanted more? Only for her own selfish, narrcistic reasons. And, oh yes, if it were my say, the doctor would have to pay child support-NOT the taxpayers.

By watching her speak it's obvious that her mind is far away from reality. Her apparent dream of becoming a mother end up hurting others, her own children, her parents and the society. Why not to make her parents house a little more confortable for the children she already had instead of more IVF treatments and plastic surgery? The kids are absolutely beautiful and I'm absolutely sorry for them, because they are being exposed by her mother and all the judgements against her are going to affect them and hurt them eventually. They could even feel unwanted and rejected by the society for her mom's lack of judgement. Her lack of common sense and her self centered perspective of life could end up hurting this kids even more. Where is Child Protection Services? Since when a person in wellfare, jobless and living at the parent's home can afford plastic surgery, IVF and publicists?

sometimes insane parents have normal children that bring blessing to the world. G-d wanted them to be born and they were, these 8 children are all alive which is very unusual. Why did G-d choose a crazy woman with 6 other kids to do this? we do not know. We do not understand everything, but G-d has his plans. Yes. she can not support these children and the state will need to pay millions of dollars to raise them but there is a purspose. Maybe the purpose was to enforce strict regulatins in otherwise non regulated fertility clinics, where now women get to play with DNA as they are getting pregnat to choose the features of their offsprings. or maybe these 8 children will be blessed with some talents. We do not know.. we must accept that there is a reason,. its a great miracle that they were born alive and well and we should not judge negatively.

I am very sorry that Aish chose to put this topic on their website as I think it crosses the line to make judgements or give voice to those who make judgements on how large of a family is o.k. This is a very personal issue, welfare nonwithstanding. For all you know she'll invent the next big thing and be tommorrow's billionaire, will that make it suddenly o.k.? The size of her family is not YOUR business! In my opinion children that are wanted so much do much better in society and aren't filling up our prisons or too depressed to get a job because their parents had all the money in the world to spend on them but nothing else and therefore end up on welfare too. If you think that's a stretch you don't work in a doctor's office like I do. You wouldn't beleive how many of your friends and neighbors are on brain-altering pills. As far as I am concerned these kind of children are worth all the money in the world. You don't see the government sterilizing women whose children have ended up in Child Protective Services do you? No, those abusive parents get to keep on making babies and none of you breathe a word in protest but for a loving mother the wrath of hell is poured on her. What kind of human refers to a loving mother as a breeder? Yes, this is not an ideal situation but none of you ought to be publicly commenting on this at all.

How can you be so sure of that? Maybe G-d gave man the abilities and the knowledge to allow people to have children when they couldn't otherwise have them. Maybe he wants them to go to the great efforts and expense, to show what they are willing to do to bring a child into this world. Of course He can do it all. We don't know his reasons. If you follow your reasoning, what about all the other medical breakthroughs? Should people not have transplants if G-d made one of their organs problematic? Maybe G-d's just saying NO and they should die. or should they do everything possible to live? We believe that every life and every moment of life is precious.

For anyone that thinks that California's taxpayers should not have to bear the burden for Ms.Suleman's choices,or that public policy should condemn her and others like her, let me recommend that you read "War Against the Weak" by Edwin Black. It is a frightening reminder of what can happen when people presume to judge. Throughout the first 3 decades of the 20th century,in the U.S.,thousands of people were involuntarily sterilized at the whim of beaurocrats,law enforcement officials,and doctors who decided that they were deficient or unfit. The ultimate goal was to exterminate their bloodlines so they would not create future burdens on the state. Who decides today who is unfit? That is choice that only G_d is qualified to make. I grieve for her children and I pray for them.

With all due respect to the esteemed Rabbi . . . she had six embryos implanted, not eight. Two of them split into twins each, creating the octuplets. This indeed is a miracle. How often do IVF procedures fail to result in even one viable child? All the time. G-d said, Be Fruitful and Multiply, NOT be fruitful and multiply if you can afford it. And as for her accepting public assistance . . . so what? Since when is personal responsibility the highest value in Judaism? Are we not our brother's keepers? If I am commanded to give to the beggar who approaches me on the street (and living in a big city this happens with quite some frequency), why shouldn't we as a society help support these children? Is this loving-kindness? Aren't we only trustees of what we have in this world? And why is all this public outrage, including what is being expressed here, not considered lashon hara? Doesn't the Talmud teach us to judge people positively? So why is it acceptable to call this woman names and suggest she has no grasp on reality? Perhaps it is we who have no grasp on reality. For years I have struggled to understand why my sister and later my cousin both died so "young" and the best our tradition could offer me by way of explanation is that we cannot understand G-d. So why is it permissible to judge the creation of life? Who are we to say these specific 8 children should not be here? Who knows what purpose G-d has for these little lives?

I agree with you that this is all in Hashem's hands and we should not "play G-d". However, people have a right to be upset b/c this mother cannot provide any means for her family, and is relying on public assistance which is coming out of everyone else's pocket. Also, it is a miracle that eight babies were born healthy, however, there are risk factors in having multiple births. I do not understand how a mother would want to purposely put those risks (premature, learning disabilities, death, etc.)on her babies. There are other women who have multiple births from IVF. But doctors usually do not put in more that three eggs in a woman who is so young. This woman did not seem like she had trouble getting pregnant, if so many eggs were successful. The right thing for this mother to do is to give some of those babies away for adoption to a couple who really cannot have children, and would do anything in this to have a healthy child.

she does not realize all the help she will need.

There are plenty of people who have children by artificial insemination that it is within the laws of Judaism. I belive that your blunt statement about Hashem not wanting his children to give birth to offspring from artificial means suggests that you have not asked or read about the many laws of Judaism that go beyond negative emotional thinking. Could you possibly imagine all of the G-d fearing people whom have asked shilohs(questions that require rabbinic consultation) of their rabbis only to have you say that it is not within the framework of your thoughts or ideals as well as telling them that what they are doing is somehow not right? Only in my opinion I think that Nadya Suleman has the right to her thoughts about having more children. I also believe that any doctor also has the right to refuse to implant her with embryos. It may be an issue of sakanah (to endanger a life) with a risky procedure with a risky outcome given that Ms. Suleman's apparent emotional issues may indeed warrant caution to her whole well being as well as to the life and well being of the children. Please give caution to making blanket statements about Jewish law unless you have asked about all circumstances in all situations.

For almost 12 years I attempted to get pregnant utilizing all the medical technology that was halachically available to me. My goal was to build a family and it did not matter to me whether my children were biologically related or "conceived" through adoption. The end result is that I have 2 adopted children and biological twins. My doctor made it very clear to me, from the onset, that he had medical and moral obligations to ensure that he did not place me or my unborn children at any unnecessary risk. Given that I would not consider the procedure known as "selective reduction" my doctor would follow the nationally accepted protocol of allowing no more than 3 fertilized embryos. It is well known in the field of infertility that more than that can lead to considerable complications while pregnant, as well as long term implications for babies likely born prematurely. I have to wonder what this women's doctor was thinking. So many have already written about the less than ideal parenting situation ( single mother , financially unstable , psychologically unstable as well). I question the doctor's motivation. Having 8 live births is a tremendous 'feather in his cap', which is great for his statistics. Shame on him for taking advantage of this unstable women. He should lose his license! There are so many women desperately trying to get pregnant who would like nothing more than to increase their chances by carrying numerous embryos, but thankfully their doctors are there to guide them at a time when emotion kicks in and rational thinking falls by the wayside. This situation ,to me , is tantamount to abuse: abuse of the system, abuse of the patient and child abuse. How incredibly sad.

What I want to know is how the state is allowing her to remain on welfare (thereby placing the burden of her decisions on the taxpayer) if she had the funds to pay for in vitro? In vitro is a very expensive treatment, and one that should NOT be affordable to the type of people welfare is intended to help. Even given her status as a single mother, I have no problem w/ her decision to have billions of children. But when the burden falls on taxpayers, everyone loses in the end.

Be fruitful and multply. How about that banana split? The children are here. I wish all of them well. Yes, they need public assistance, family assistance and assistance from friends. Hopefullly the children and mother will get it. The cildren who have special needs must be loved and attended to as well as the more average children. I wish that each child will be able to persue their talents and become well balanced and productive citizens. It is not for me to pass judgment.

She had 6 embryos implanted as in her previous pregnancies. 2 of them split into twins. As much as we don't understand why -it wasn't her doing or the doctors. Hashem gave her 8 healthy babies this time instead of just one! I personally don't think she was right to bring more kids into the world considering her single & financial status. Why fault the doctor if she paid for the procedure when he was just doing his job- Where did she get the money from for the procedure? and why didn't she put that money away for her six existing kids instead???

wherever the fault lies, with the doctor, or mother, this is a completely immature, irresponsible action with major repercussions down the line.

It is very evident the doctor had plans for a reality show, otherwise why all the video pictures before? Nadya is a very confused & sick girl that needs more than likely years of psychiatric help. The idea of adoption should not even be considered, but like the Dionne Qiunts years ago, we need to consider the state as the only way to protect these babies. If they all survive and become commercially on demand, trust funds could be set up to offset the cost of raising them. Two legal trustee's could be assigned, but under no circumstances would the mother be allowed to touch the funds ever to they are adults.

Routinely we see large families the subject of television entertainment. 6 autistic children, large families by choice. It is their reality. God allowed it. It is His concern and none of our business. Our tax dollars also pay for abortions. As for me, I'd rather pay for life.

I think a mother of six who is unmarried and has a spotty employment record should want to take care of the children she has and not bring any more children into the world unless her marital status and ability to provide for her family change. Under these circumstances it was irresponsible for the doctor to impregnate her via in vitro, knowing her situationa at that time. However, once she was impregnated, the lives of those babies within her womb are sacred and should be carefully cared for before and after birth.

This is what I deeply believe, and that is, now that these children are born, they deserve a "life"and I do wonder, how they will feel, one day, realizing all this furor over "them". I hope they all enjoy being part of humanity and make a contribution, because I do perceive that God is leading us through a deep, ongoing story, that has everything to do with ethics and values, and the fire we generate around this. We are "meant" to ponder these questions and yes, it takes the wisdom of Solomon, in this case, Suleman, to figure out, what's right. Yes, I see all sides of this question quite clearly, and, as you have so sagely pointed out, being another Solomon, it's not easy to come up with a one size fits all answer. So debate we must, keeping in mind that the pearl is formed by the rub, the constant rub of sand in the oyster shell. It's the fire we generate that is the underlying friction that generates ethics and the ethical dilemma. I believe, we are meant, to agonize!

If she was married and her family self supporting, the discussion of this mothers situation would not be as venomous as it is. The fact that she is a single mother, on welfare, takes her story to a whole new level and gives many more people the right to have an opinion on the issue. My opinion: if she really loves these children (and her poor suffering parents), she would put them up for adoption so they would have a stable family life.

It has gone too far. If our Creator wants us to have children, we will have them by the way our bodies were designed to. Not by implanting. There are reasons way beyond our knowing why one doesn't get pregnant. It is G-d's way of just saying NO.

I have followed this story carefully and watched this woman speak. It is clear to me that she has no grasp with reality whatsoever. That would make her a totally unsafe mother. I too am glad I'm not a Californian who would be forced to support her brood.

Perhaps HaShem did this so that we will pass laws or over sight regulations so that women may continue to have babies, not litters

One thing I don't see emphasized enough is that HER PARENTS are helping her care for all these kids. It was irresponsible in the extreme for Nadya to try to have more children when she knew her mother was overwhelmed with caring for the first six. This is the worst case of advantage-taking I've ever seen. That said, once the children are here, of course they're welcome. I wish her and her parents good luck, and I hope the situation doesn't affect all these children adversely.

How can a woman on welfare afford the expensive process of IV fertilization? In addition, did anyone investigate how a mother of 6, with no support system except for a grandmother can get implanted with so many embryos? This is the height of irresponsibility by her and the doctor who did the procedure.

If we all waited until we could afford children, chances are we would never have them. That being said I don't think student loans were meant to be used for the purposes Ms. Suleman used them for. If she were married, we probably wouldn't be discussing this at all. The fact is, there are 8 babies and 6 children who need to be loved, fed and taken care of. What happened can't be changed and while the doctor who helped her should be investigated, time should be spent figuring out how to help this woman care for these 14 children. They should not be punished for their mother's lack of judgment.

I believe this woman is immature and affected by the media hype surrounding people like Angelina Jolie. Cameras follow Angelina wherever she goes and it all looks glamorous. If cameras follow you aren't you special and famous? In this case I would say the word to use is "infamous". My advice is to shut down the cameras and bring in Child Protective Services. Give those children a solid home by removing them from their narcissistic mother. Perhaps get the father involved if possible. I feel sorry for those babies.

I am in the tiny minority of people who have decided I have positively NO interest in child-rearing. I know this is not a trait usually associated with women, even more so with someone who is aware of the 7 laws Bnei Noach. However, the well-raised questions on most of the comments I've read ("WHO in the world PAID for this!?" "WHERE is the father!?" "Is she sitting at home waiting for her free ride!?") are issues that childfree people have been raising for DECADES! I guess it took a completely outrageous story such as this, for the majority of Americans to realize that service of G-d is NOT in irresponsible breeding and theft from taxpayers! I am beyond appalled to even think that some compare this woman to the righteous women in Egypt. Those women didn't expect the world to pay for their children! They never expected any book deals or movie contracts! They had loving, responsible men to provide help and finance for those multiple births they had! (And even men like Moses' father felt the incredible weight of responibility of having children until Miriam, his daughter, got him back on track!) They were NOT special needs children! If you want 18 or 20 or 100 kids, fine. Pay for them YOURSELF, like the Duggar family. Marry a responsible man who will pay and raise his own kids! Pay for your own IVF! Give a home to a child in this country that doesn't have a home! The welfare system is in place to help those who are in TOUGH times....those who are RESPONSIBLE for their own lives and know the responsibility for their children and are having it rough through NO fault of their own...not situations like this! My taxes are already paying for one "family" in my state that has 20 kids, had a house GIVEN to them by Habitat for Humanity, and they TRASHED the house until it was condemned!!! I do not want a woman in every county in my state to pay for such as Ms. Suleman! I certainly am vehement when it comes to this issue. My feelings on IVF and irresponsible breeding have been bottled up for so long because I thought there was no place in Judaism for them. I guess it takes a Nadya Suleman to change that, unfortunately.

All of these comments make me sick. Where is your compassion. She GAVE BIRTH to these kids, therefore she has an absolute right to keep them until she proves unfit. Might I add, there are plenty of Orthodox Jewish families in Meah Shearim with 14 kids who rely on hand-outs, monetary donations, etc, as they are completely unable to afford their children, meanwhile contributing no services to the state of Israel. They plan their lives this way and yet you all condemn Nadya and not these people in Meah Shearim. Just a thought :-)

I don't think what she did was immoral.In the end the most precious thing is human life and you cannot condemn her for bringing precious human life into this world.However I do think she should take resposability for rasing the children. And before you are all too eager to condemn her think about palestinians and arabs with 4 wives and 50 children.Aren't they immoral also?Still no one dennounces them...

Becoming a parent is what's in the best interest of the CHILD, not because "I WANT KIDS." The ultimate selfishness is to deliberately bring a child into the world without a father. To do so eight times is an eight-fold sin. These children should have been taken away from this selfish woman and given up for adoption to a two-parent (male and female)good couple (or more than one couple) who could take care of them properly. The physician who facilitated the procedure should have his license removed.

The case is not merely a case of octuplets being born. After seeing an interview of the woman, I think it's clear that Nadya is simply not mentally balanced. She's on welfare, yet denies it vehemently. When asks how she'll take care of her children, financially, emotionally, and physically, she acts as if it's no problem. She doesn't have the money, the time, or the maturity to care for those children. She acts as if her "love" is enough. It simply isn't. She already has three disabled children (who receive social security benefits) and she'll now have 8 more newborns with special needs? She is being supremely selfish. If she really wanted to do what's best for her children, she'd put them up for adoption. As one commentator said, she's like the 14-year-old awkward teen who wants babies just to "love" her unconditionally. Well, one day, those toddlers will develop into independent and at times, defiant, human beings, and she'll again be desperate for that unconditional love. I'd rather my tax money go for counseling for her, not babies.

Nadia Suleman has 14 children to provide for. How will she be able to realistically provide for all of them when she is unable to financially support herself? Is she equipped to meet the emotional and psychological as well as spiritual needs of her 14 children. She has used educational loans to pay for her artificial insemination. Educational loans do allow for living expenses. This use seems to be a stretch of living expenses. Her web site is looking for funds to provide for her children and volunteers to care for them. Where is the parenting here? Some of her 6 other children have disabilities so intense that they qualify for SSI payments monthly. I am glad that I do not live in California so that my state income taxes will not have to provide for the welfare which she will need to survive. Is it responsible parenting to give birth to children so that your personal needs are met?

I don't know. she has the right to implant an egg in herself. and she had no idea that all eight eggs would fertilize. on the other hand, she has no money. how was she planning to support this child and all her other children? she should not become rich from this. she is using the government. who will show these kids love? the mom will be running around to tv shows and the poor grandmother will have to take care of 14 children. all eight will have some sort of special needs problem because they are born so small and need to be in the niku for a really long time. but G-d is the one who ultimately did this so we can not say we are mad that it happened. but this lady must be really crazy. she is really selfish and self centered. how in the world was she planning to support even one extra child? and don't forget every child needs a mother and father's love. where is the father in the first place?????

The doctor implanted less than 8 embryos but some split to form twins, neverhtheless there are those who see this as G-d's miracles and others who say that this was not G-d's plan but this was not a natural occurence. the question is whether society should be held respinsible for the choice this woman made because she does not have a source of income, and is unable to look aftet these children on her own so she dumped them and the other 6 on her mother who has told the public that she is depleted and doesn't have the strength to look after the 6 and certainly not 8 more. The public has reacted by condemnsing her because unlike others with multiple births free gifts and money to show support her chice is not coming in--- people are angry. The doctor is bound by law not to discriminate, so what will be next-he must support gay couples, he must support songle divorcees, so what next will he have to support a trio who wishes to share the marriage bed? Why not support the 60 year old mother because sure he won't be able to ageism as an excuse. The question here should be what is in the best interests of the children? Prematurely born children even when born healthy do develop a range of disabilities so the public will have to pay for their upkeep without having had a say in this selfish decision. Those who are believers will then be the ones who will have to put thir money where their mouth is otherwise laws will have to be written to assure that children are not produced without responsibility.

There are several things to consider 1. She is single 2. She is umemployed 3. She has no home of her own, she lives with her parents in a 3 bedroom house. 4. Who is paying for these expensive procedures. What she did was totally selfish and immoral. I believe she did all this for her 30 seconds of fame and for donations that she knew would come her way, she is counting on talk shows etc paying her to be on their shows. I think her local DCF should investigate her and her living conditions and I think they should make the "father" pay child support and not make the citizens of her state support her

Nadya gives the word "selfish" a new meaning. What she did was child abuse. Who will take care of her additional children if she can't take care of herself? Guess who? " The Taxpayers". Who else? People like her know all the loopholes so they don't have to lift a finger nor take responsibility for their actions. Isn't that special? As Judge Judy once said to a 23 year old mother of 5, when are you going to go out of the "Babymaking" business? Judge Judy, I wish you could take this case on national TV & shame this pathetic excuse for a mother. She has some nerve. Obama: We need to change this "sense of entitlement" in your race & other races. Whatever happened to "pulling your own weight in society"? If a person or a couple create a life, it is their responsibility to take care of it, not the taxpayers. What kind of life are these kids going to have? Nadya should be forced to have a Hysterectomy so she won't being another life into this already troubled world.

I believe the woman was not only selfish, but mentally off. I do feel sorry for the children that she has created. They had no say so in that arena and will suffer the consequences of their mother's egocentric nature.

Here are a few more issues to ponder that haven',t been mentioned: 3 of the older children are special needs. It is probable that at least one if not several of the octuplets will also be special needs. The mother never contributed to the care of the older children. The grandmother did and she is burned out. It will be physically impossible for 8 babies to fit into her current house which might be about 1500 square feet. The mother almost certainly has had plastic surgery to emulate Angelina Josie who has a huge family, but a mother AND father and is financially independent, (as are the Duggar family who have 18 children & John & Kate Gosslin who have 8). The grandmother stated that both she & the sperm donator begged the doctor NOT to go through with the procedure and he agreed not to. Now the important issue is how are the children to be taken care of? Bankrupt California social services will do an assessment and be an important part of the process, but personally I don',t think the mother should benefit financially from the notoriety which I believe she planned on from the beginning. No TV shows, mansions, book deals.

This life is a test and most people know that. This news subject is a test and most people SHOULD know that. "Playing God" starts at the concept of just how fast and loose we use the ABILITY to procreate. It is God`s purview to "continue" (or not) humankind. When we dip into our (God-given) knowlege to "ajust" whether or not a child shall be conceived, we are already on a slippery slope because emotion, human weakness and faulty decisions lay ahead. (That is WHY it is God`s, not our purview! These 8 babies recently born are not simply "good" nor "bad".... They ARE a message from God (who makes NO mistakes) that we are NOT THINKING clearly nor deeply enough about the serious FACTS of life. Just another indication that GOD is being REMOVED from our lives and world. We are making a "sorry" life for ourselves through ignorance, deceit, selfishness and blindness. Just THINK, mankind! Think it through to the end of the subject, not just to the fringes.......

There are, of course, women who have no children and who are desperately waiting for such a procedure or a similar one to be done. They either don't have the money, or are in line waiting months or perhaps years to have an appointment with such a specialist. Perhaps precedence should be given to the women who don't have children! Maybe this doctor should've said, "Look, you have kids, I want to spend my energy helping others far less fortunate than you!" Is there any wonder that there is such an emotional outcry?

Where did an unemployed single mother get the $100k to pay for this? Is there a deeper issue here? If Islam has a goal of world dominion, wouldn't it be tempting to cause a world wide explosion of Muslim children? The same logic that had Sadam Hussein pay $25k to families of suicide bombers who killed in Israel guides these people. "Democracy" rules in America, what better way to bring down a country? In a couple of generations, the demographics will change drastically.

If Nadya was married and children had a father and a family, I would say GOOD FOR YOU. Well done GIRL! But the children have no family, no father-they have a selfish "but I want children" mother. My prayers are with all fourteen children. Yiddishe mama

Chani, of course tax payers always pay in the end. However, all the things you mentioned are generally covered by insurance that people pay for themselves (auto insurance, medical insurance) via their premiums. If this woman had insurance coverage that she herself had paid the premium for, there would be no questions or problems. I agree with you that there are multitudes of issues that society could deal with and fine tune so there is less or as little impact as is possible to the tax payers. And this is my main point: it is fair game to talk about and speak about and question such issues.

To anonymous, reality check: having babies is not the only thing that costs tax payers lots of money. How about all of the smokers who develop lung cancer, and the like, exposing others to second-hand smoke, which is also responsible for terminal illnesses? or people who are obese, and senior citizens who don't relinquish their driver's licenses when they become a hazard to themselves and everyone else on the road who also cost the tax payers plenty? And what about the regular guy who falls asleep behind the wheel?In a democracy people are permitted to be self-determining, even when they make bad choices. You cannot censor every behavior that is going to cost the tax payers in some way. Cost to tax payers should not be the pivotal determinant of whether one may/should be judgmental about another's behavior.

It does not matter what I think of this Suleman as it will have no baring on her life or mine. As to the future, it will not in all probability affect it. Therefore, I will not comment as I will focus and use my energy on things that can make a difference.

Chavi, and to a lesser extent Susan, please come back from fantasy land. My comment is not meant to be personal, as I am sure that you are a well meaning sort. However, whether or not G-d is happy with this woman having 8 additional children to bless is not the question here. The only consideration here is to acknowledge that this woman and her first six children, as well as the 8 additional babies have, and will become the responsibility of the tax payers. Is this not the "peoples" business? As long as the state -- the people if you will -- must pay for these 15 people, we are obligated to "judge". Not something to think about? It is because not only because it will ultimately be the tax payers that must take care of her and the children, but because tikun olum also involves using resources wisely and fairly. Yes, it would be no one's business if the state did not have to intervene and she could afford everything herself.

Now that I am a mother myself, I see firsthand how important both parents are to a child. So, while life my take unexpected turns, I believe it is unethical to intentionally create a child who will be "fatherless" or "motherless."

Getting pregnent for popularity and publicity is what some mothers and families do to get attention. It's not right, because it is not very good role modeling. It's bad enough such pregnancies gain publicity like that 13-year-old boy now a father after impregnating a 15-year-old girl, as well as a 17-year-old girl who recently gave birth to triplets...As for Nadya Suleman, she seems very addicted to breeding since she is most likely lonely living with her parents and children with no present father figure. Who are the fathers of her 14 children? It's indeed a tremendous burden on the economy have 6-14 kids to feed and take care of, because who is going to pay for it all? It's not fair to the tax payers and the children being brought into the world for a popularity contest by playing G-d. I don't know what is worse - having multiple births more than once or a child who is the product of an intermarriage by a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother who will likely have an identity crisis.

Hi Susan, It's a bit different when the woman has 14 children, all under the age of 10, and is MARRIED. Miss Suleman is SINGLE, living with her parents, and now has 14 children to take care of. She doesn't have a husband to help. She has her PARENTS. My personal opinion is that this woman is mentally unstable and that ALL the kids should be removed from her. She should also have a hysterectomy to prevent this from happening again. I am extremely angry that this happened. I am childless, with likely no hope of ever having children, and this selfish woman uses FEDERAL FUNDS (i.e. YOUR money) to get herself 14 kids. Even her parents are angry with her. Who's going to take care of the kids? Sure ain't gonna be her. She's going to try and get 6 more, probably. My opinion, sorry if it's harsh. a.

Just answering some comments. Yes many people have many kids. But usually they have it one at a time over a period of time. - When someone has it all at once, it costs people a lot of money. That's why people are upset

I am surprised that none of the comments here have mentioned that this woman was on public assistance before and during this pregnancy. This fact should not go unnoticed.

Everything is ultimately in Hashems hands, however we are also responsible for our choices and actions. If they never implanted 8 embryos, Hashem wouldn't bless them with 8 children

In the late Sixties, I was part of a coop Jewish Sunday School in a college town.
Most parents said that we should limit having children because of sympathy for the planet, so to speak. I was very strong about the idea that our people are a tiny minority and can afford to have as many children as we can, even should! I made some "converts." They had never thought of it that way. That was before all these modern miracles, *or* was it. Jewish women had 6 children at a time in Egypt and the Torah says that was G-d giving us additional strength in adversity.
The case of N.S. is distinct in that there is no father and even the grandparents are at their wits end. But the U.S. now supports millions of illegal aliens and their children, so what''s 8 more? A pittance. Of course we all have opinions, and while the doctors appear to think they can play G-d, of course they can''t. So in comes the child welfare board *or* the like to see that these children get proper care, whatever that means these days.
I have a few friends with more than 14 children, and, thank G. with a caring father have raised amazing, responsible, well adjusted children.
This is one for asking a major Rav, and how the Torah views this entire picture. One thing I would add,
is that big families can be very happy experiences. It is her choices and the doctor''s thinking they play G. that is disturbing. There are eight lives here that will have the most to cope with this.
P.S. You are still a great therapist, and helped my own family at one time as well. Thank you.

Rabbi Salomon didn't mention that this woman is unmarried. I myself come from a family nearly as large as this one, and my spouse and I are in the process of building the largest family Hashem will grant us. Yes, my SPOUSE AND I TOGETHER. FOr this unmarried woman on welfare to undergo an expensive procedure, usually not covered by insurance (was this done as a charity case) when she has no husband (or even some committed male partner) is wrong and unethical. She is stealing from the American people, she cannot possibly hope to give her children a decent life (and I don't mean that children need wealthy parents or lots of toys- but they do need two parents who are hopefully not narcissistic). We cannot legislate about this kind of behaviour, but I hope that there is a social worker watching the situation very closely, ready to take these children away at the slightest indication that this mother cannot handle the job.

To say that Nadya should not have had these babies because there are people who would give anything to have even one child is like a parent who tells his child that he should eat up all of his vegetables because there are children in Africa who are starving. What does one thing have to do with the other? Are there a finite number of embryos in the world? Is Nadya in any way depriving another woman of having a child, by having 8 herself? And whose business is it anyway? This is not an issue that impacts anyone else in any significant way. It is a serious problem when people think that they have the right to be judgmental about other people when they are not privy to all of the facts and it is not something that impacts them in any way. People need to learn to mind their own business and stop judging other people. This is truly something NOT to think about!

If anyone was playing God, it was the doctor who implanted eight embryos into this woman. If God wanted people to have so many babies at once, why doesn't it happen naturally? Besides, this woman is a single mother of six--how is she supposed to raise 14 children, 8 of which are probably going to have major special needs and require special education? Is she extremely wealthy or have an army of committed volunteers at her beck and call? It is unnatural and unethical, in my humble opinion.

It reminds me of the Midrash that in Egypt the Jews routinely gave birth to 6 at a time. How did they cope?

In vitro fertilization is for childless couples, not single women who already have six children of their own! The doctor was derelict. Normal procedures call for 2 embryos to be implanted. This doctor implanted 6! (Two embryos split into twins) The mother has it all wrong. The proper way is to get married and THEN have children, resorting to IV fertilization when all else fails. Finally, the mother says all children come from the same father. However, accepted medical procedure requires (unless it come from the husband)that the identity of the donor not be disclosed. Concealment of paternal identity is unconscionable according to Jewish law. Some of Nadya Suleman's other children have autism, speech impediments and ADHD. She was warned of the high risks, but still went through with it. Obviously, a person who only cares about herself!

--10 children in a Catholic family are seen as a blessing from G-d. --10 children in a Mormon family are seen as a blessing from G-d. --10 children raised by my great aunt who was widowed young were seen as a blessing from G-d. --10 children in a Jewish family are seen as a blessing from G_d. --10 children in a Christian home is seen as a blessing from G_d. --10 children are raised by unmarried, non-working Mothers quite commonly here in America and are seen as a blessing from G-d. -- How could these 14 beautiful children be different in G-ds' eyes?

The media said the mother may have had cosmetic surgery to look like Angelina Jolie. And that's the reason for her having the first 6 kids, to be like Jolie. This time she only wanted twins but 8 were born. This is simply gossip I heard on the TV News. If it should be true, I would have issues with the mothers reason for having the babies. But the babies are here and I believe G_d welcomes all 14 of them.

We cannot blame anyone for playing G-d in my opinion, after all anything happens in this world is the will of G-d. So let's try to see the miracle here. And hope for the best for these cute infants.