Beneath the Surface: A Deeper Look at Modesty

This is a quote from the 2000 article above. ""If women are viewed externally, devoid of internal character and spirituality, they are stripped of their unique gift and strength. A danger exists that they will be objectified and degraded."" I read this and wonder, just who is objectifying and degrading those women? I would have to say it is the men. I agree that dignity in choosing what to wear in public or in shul is very important for a women. It would show she has self-respect and honors her body. That is just sound good judgement. For a woman to be modest in dress just because it tempts or distracts a man, seems that a womans body is seen in a negative way by men. There would be lots of other women that the men would come in contact with in public and at work, where the women aren't modestly dressed. ......Shouldn't all men be responsible for controling their own thoughts and not blame their distractions on the clothing of women?

As a teacher of mine once said, you should be "attractive but not attracting."

Great article.

In reply to Zahavah Devorah's comment...it was a while ago,but i hadn't read this then. I would like to say that modesty does not have to mean un-attractive. It is not suggesting going around in tatty old clothes. It does mean covering up,but not in a way that means you look ugly. A neat and clean appearance and a gentle and quiet spirit is very beautiful indeed.I am sure that a person who dresses in this manner,rather than revealing too much flesh or wearing skin tight clothing is likely to be taken far more seriously, which was one of Zahavah's concerns. And though the Kohen may have had to be spotless and wore elaborate clothing,every article of clothing would have meaning and been directed by God for them to wear.That is a far cry from people today who dress to impress, to 'sell themselves' through their clothing and who are trying to make themselves intentionally attractive in an alluring way to the opposite sex(apart from their spouses).Women who cover themselves can still decorate their clothing, wear jewelry etc but they know it is the hidden place of the heart that is more important, so that is where the emphasis lies, as they are answerable to God. We are to be vessels of honour, not vessels of scruffiness, so that as we represent God in this world we do it with dignity..to be men and women of excellence,inside and out! p.s we are all on a journey and growing, so i too am struggling with some areas, eg head covering, which i agree with but havent the confidence to yet embrace. Can anyone tell me where it is commanded by God?

Very informative. I'm a 23 yr old jewish college student and I fully believe in modesty.

great article. I want a copy

Modesty is an topic that runs deep, and I often have trouble making sense of the different levels of modesty and how to apply them. I wanted to make one point:

I understand why "Torah scholars should be extra modest in clothes and in their behavior. (Derech Eretz Zuta 7)," because overly attractive clothes might draw others to pay more attention to the clothing than to the lessons that can be learned from the scholars.

However, I also wanted to point out that in order for the Kohen to serve in the Temple, he had to be completely free of any blemishes, and he had to wear specially ornate garmets for the occasion. There's even a parsha specifically detailing what "deformities" would prevent a Kohen from serving in the temple. Serving as Kohen in the temple is one of the most prominent positions a Jew could endure. And we learn from the commentaries that because the Kohen is in such a visible position, it is imperative that he not have any imperfections and be pleasing to the eye. They need to be this way specifically because as humans, if the Kohen had a deformity, we would be focusing too much on the deformity and not on the actual holiness of the act of sacrifice. So it's confusing to me when in some instances the Torah emphasizes the importance of physical beauty and dressings and in other parts, it emphasizes modesty and dressing unattractively. Moreover, if someone were dressing very unattractively, they would not be approachable at all, and humans would not take them seriously. For example, someone dressed in dirty tattered clothes speaking out wouldn't get very much acknowledgment from the average passerby, but someone wearing nicer clothes saying the same thing would get noticed.

"As a Psych major, I find it annoying when the term "schizophrenia" is thrown around and is used in the wrong context, as though it is a blanket term for any different type of psychosis."

So you discovered this as a psych major. And before you were a psych major? Stop looking down your nose at people who use this term wrong- it is very, very common, and no reflection on the person. I bet the farm you misused it too, before you became oh so knowledgeable, AS A PSYCH MAJOR.

If this is the kind of thing that annoys you, you've got a long way to go, baby.

Schizophrenia- from Latin meaning "split mind." To restrict the definition to simply whether someone perceives that which is not there is a gross oversimplification. With repsect to the article, outstanding.
Yasher koach.

THANKS G-D WE SEE THIS CHANGE IN ALL THE COUNTRIES PLEASE PRAY FOR ALL THE JEWISH WOMEN TO HAVE ZENIUT IN THEIR CLOTHES. CONGRATULATIONS WONDERFUL YOUR ARTCLE

to the editor- it is a common mistake to use the word "schizophrenia" to describe split personality disorder. the author clearly meant to refer to the latter. the former is a disorder characterized by hearing and seeing things that do not exist, and therefor possibly speaking back as though what they heard/ saw was reality. Split personality does not mean that the person sees or hears anything, rather it means that the person is living a double life with two different personalities. One personality can speak to the other, making the person look odd. But it is a completely different disorder. As a Psych major, I find it annoying when the term "schizophrenia" is thrown around and is used in the wrong context, as though it is a blanket term for any different type of psychosis. A schizophrenic does NOT have a split personality.

What it means is that a woman who dresses according to halacha dresses in an attractive, but not attracting too much attention, way. she looks like a truly beautiful woman, because her inner spiritual beauty shines through and complements her external appearance!

Now I understand the reason for dressing up after years of marraige. This passage did bless me, thank you.

It is the Torah only that can teach what is right. This is great and i will pass it on!

I understand this article and agree in much of it but also understand that in the Muslim religion where the women are very modestly covered that honor killing by family members and regular abuse against females is prevalent (where is the respect of their own in this culture? Modesty I think to the extreme can also be a form of power & control). I also got confused by the statement that AFTER physicality is not distracting - it is a mitzvah to adorn the vessel for holiness. Does this mean a woman puts on makeup and lacy underware and then covers her body in all halachic observances? I mean this in no disrespect but not sure how this statement should be taken from this article.

A curious Jew who strives to understand

Modesty in the orthodox world doesn't mean you can't wear cosmetics or jewelry. Just not wild,outlandish styles. You can wear very fashionable designer clothing just with longer lengths and no tight or clingy spandex fabrics. Most Jewish women are very fashionable and we all love our makeup and jewelry!!!

This article is very well written. In our times, I feel that somehow the outside world is totally oblivious to modesty to the point where I sometimes feel embarrased for others. Seeing this inspires me to try to be more tzinua myself, not try to incorporate "their" mode of dress into mine. I do hope you continue sending messages of "modesty" to all our "Bnos Yisroel".

Outstanding article. The term "schizophrenic" is improperly used and may at least initially create doubt in the integrity of the article. Schizophrenia is often missued to mean "multiple personality disorder." Schizophrenics have one personality, charactoristics of schizophrenia are: visual, auditory, olfactory hallucinations and often paranoia in a variety of forms. I don't want to sound critical, I felt it subtracted from the integrity of an otherwise outstanding article.

Thank you Dina - what a great reminder to all of us that great, inner spiritual strength can be drawn from practicing modest behaviours in all aspects of observant life. If one of our goals is to make manifest G-d's moral laws on earth, then modesty is a great place to start! Blessings to you.

How beautifly simple, the concepy of modesty. The world, the flesh and the evil one have blinded us to this truth. It has hurt virtuous women who seek virtuous men to love, marry and begin their families. Lack of modesty has hurt good, decent men who seek virtuous wives. We must stop the pornography -visual, verbal -on tv,movies,talk shows,magazines and from Hollywood. Write michael eisner, formerly ceo of abc, disney etc. He is near the top of the power pyramid. and pray first.

Our secular culture promotes immodesty and immorality as an idol to be worshiped. As a teenager I believed the magazines,songs and movies and accepted the false reality of objectification as being love. Now, in my fifties, I have found that women that dress modestly attract and are sought out by a different type of male...respectful.

Great article. I understand the NEED to be modest in reguards to all parts of our lives. Thanks!

When my grandmother wore floor lenght skirts the sight of an ankle was considered provocative. Modesty is more for the practitioner than for the viewin public.

Enjoyed the article. We are always hearing "look and feel your best". It seems that the message society gives to us is change yourself or you will not be confident or successful---especially to young girls. Lose weight, dye your hair, whiten your teeth, show your stomach piercing, and the cleavage from your breast augmentation. Pride in ones appearence has gone astray. Clean hair, clean teeth, and a plain, modest dress
equal frumpy in this day and age. Another article on this topic would be great for women, girls.

I have never read or heard such a perspective on modesty before this. Your insights are refreshing and ring of truthfulness. Wisdom is your gift. Thank you.

My parents taught me to always look into the eyes of a person when talking to them. Therefore my first contact is seeing one's attitude and spritial reflet of their body. Thanks be to my father and mother always.

Its frustrating. I did not find my beshert when I was younger, and now, in late childbearing years, it seems to be impossible to find a man who *doesn't* have some impossible image in his mind when it comes to finding a wife. Even self-described observant men cannot seem to escape this. Seems the secular world has deeply infiltrated the minds of most men. Sigh.

I AM in agreement with Lebab's comments on 5-19-2005. No matter how mosdest i have dressed, i have still had the unfortunate and degrading experiences of men's lusting over me in public like a dog salivating. Perhaps more could be done to educate men while they are still young about them being modest in their exprssions of desire in public especially over women like me whose hearts are fully Elohim's. I hunger for men of G-D to treat me with admiration because of my desire to worship my King and have favor in H-S Eyes most of all.

I am an African-American Christian woman that happened upon your website today. This article truly spoke to me. I agree that it is difficult as a woman to try to balance the desire to be "attractive" and be spiritual. Many of us, especially in the West, have personal experience with being victims of those who would see only with their eyes, and not with their hearts and spirits. Many other cultures understand that, by covering herself, a woman is protecting herself from this kind of abuse; unfortunately, in our Western culture, we see other cultures, such as Muslim or Orthodox Jewish societies, where women practice modesty as being patriarchal and oppressive. I personally find it freeing!

Although my faith might differ in some ways from the views expressed here, the humanity, spirituality, and thoughtful insights greatly appeal to me and have been a blessing to me. Thank you for these insights; I will be checking back in again - keep up the good work.

You are absolutely right on! I found your website while searching for guidelines on producing modesty seminars. Western culture has
for some time been desensitized into accepting vulgar, form-fitting, and frankly what used to be lingerie, as appropriate fashion. I speak mainly to the women's issue because that's where the most extreme day-to-day violations occur. We have so many mothers now who don't recognize this problem and not only encourage this type of immodest attire but also dress this way themselves. Fingershaking is not in order but re-education is. This is a subject that should be addressed in places of worship but sadly many leaders are paralyzed by fear and rejection and won't "go there." Also, if women want to be taken seriously they should take their cues from the men in business wearing suits, casual dress, etc., but always decently covered, and never form-fitting. Also, many women do not know how to select a pair of slacks or jeans that fit properly or de-emphasize, in fact, the emphasis seems to be deliberately placed on the derriere! It is possible to dress fashionably and modestly, but one must choose to. One last point, men will not "out grow" a natural tendency but both sexes would do well to exercise self-control, modesty, and holy love.

When we understand doctrines and concepts against the backdrop of God's instructions, they become attractive and lovingly compelling. Thank you for being faithful to the teachings of the Torah! I received a tremendous blessing as a woman. I have shared them with others including a boarding school for high school students where our son attends!
Arlene

While many of the points are quite lovely in this article, there is certainly a middle ground between long skirts and long sleeved shirts and inappropriately revealing clothing. I enjoy wearing shorts and tank tops in the summer, because they are comfortable, and I prefer pants over skirts because they are comfortable. I dress in way that is comfortable and practical, but not provocative. The idea that the only way to dress modestly is through long skirts and covering the elbows is an extreme expression of this idea.

"A strong tendecy among males to notice the physical and external and be stimulated visually."

How many men in our long history have gotten themselves into trouble because of this? And the fact that this statement still holds true thousands of years later, saddens me.

If men do not outgrow this type of thinking, it won't matter how much a women "de-emphasizes" her body, he'll always find something on her that will stimulate him visually.

thanks for the article.

I think modesty is very important. It makes us look dignified and smart. And people concentrate on us and not our bodies.

People say 'if you have a nice body, show it' but really people should protect their special bodies and dress modestly.

I appreciate What's New at Aish columns, and my response to "Beneath the Surface" by Dina Coopersmith was "so true" and "that's beautiful". Women are so much more than a splashy ad cover or dinner on the table, and we should be grateful for this every day.
Robert S Flaum
Boca Raton

Your article speaks very well to the point to the stereotypes of women and the misconceptions about the meanings of how they dress. In doing so however, your casual and incorrect use of the term Schizophrenia, which does not mean dichotomy, perpetuates another stigma that of Mental Illness. Schizophrenia is a debilitating serious brain disorder it is not about inner conflict or debate with oneself about ones drives. It would strengthen your article to choose a correct analogy.

very well-written

I believe the beauty of a woman can be seen on her face, even more her eyes. A woman is protected by her creator.A distraction as such may serve to be in awe of His handiwork. I have seen His work on all faces of many colors. Beauty in some countries is seen as evil because it's a distraction. Nothing He has created is evil. Only our minds need covering more yet changing. All is beauty.

I enjoyed reading your letter about dressing modestly. but my children attend school in the Baltimore City area, my children are often made fun of when they do not where the latest styles and fashion, and I find myself buying some of these clothes, just so my children can go to school in peace and not come home in tears, everyone wants to be accepted, and we live in the city, where rent is cheap, and I must do my best to keep my children in the faith but we must also dress so we can live in peace also. What would you do? If it were your child.

Ms. Coopersmith wrote, "In fact, we see that cultures which admire women primarily for their physical characteristics, ultimately degrade them and take advantage of them."

It is the obsession with a woman's physical form, whether it leads to a desire to uncover that form or hide it up, that can lead to women's degradation. The important point is finding a way to prevent the physicality from becoming distracting.

At the same time, is physical beauty itself not a gift from G-d to be appreciated on its own terms?

An interesting article to be sure and I am not disputing that modesty is a good thing but it is factually incorrect to say all cultures wear 'something' many do not or do so now only after contact with western culture...South American Indians and Australian Aboriginals for example and many cultures do so only as adults and even then they only cover the genital area...out of modesty? Perhaps or because these are vulnerable areas physically in need of protection...just a thought...

This point of view should be taught in all the schools and brought forth in all the magazines and movies because it is G-ds truth. Excellent.

I am currently doing a dissertation on cultural implications of psychotherapy with Orthodox Jews and would like the author's permission to cite this article in my dissertation.
I think this is an excellent, well articulated statement of the way in which Orthodox Jewish women find modesty in dress empowering, rather than oppressive. I am always amused by colleagues who are dressed provacatively (and uncomfortably) who then tell me that I am oppressed because I dress modestly. Who is in more danger of objectification?
Thanks a lot!

Very inspiring and strengtening words.
if you can write about the hair covering
once a woman gets married.

Thank you for sharing this beautiful perspective

I have never really read many articles or comments on this topic that I appreciated. I would like to thank Dina Coopersmith for such a wonderful article - it expressed what I felt all along.

It really is a good perspective..Certainly makes me wish I could do things over

Thank you, Dina, for writing this article. I find it profoundly inspiring for those of us women striving to be modest in countries where women are indeed physically glorified yet devoid of character.

I wish more people understood this instead of lookign at modesty as a restriction only.
Where did we get these other ideas- like Judaism being resrtictive?

How absolutely beautiful. I have a gnawing hunger for this profound insight. Thank you for sharing.

I appreciate the insight of this essay.

In today's orthodox Jewish world, so much is concentrated on modesty (particularly in women), and what they are wearing, how they are acting etc.. that I find that at times this obsession almost seems to overshadow real and true strengths. Surely a true modest person should value other people's modesty, at whatever 'level' they may be at!? As modesty is one of the most important parts of life, it should be treated with humility, and therefore people should not be judged harshly if they are less modest than someone else.

The fact that there is an outlet and contact of sorts to display current trends in Judaism in regards to pertinent issuses is a life saver.

An interesting article, but it leaves a lot of room for argument. This article suggests that if a woman is immodest (meaning that she isn't wearing a skirt and elbow covering top)she is devoid of character, because her immodest attire is obscuring her inner essence. Now, isn't that a huge assumption? Simply because a curve on a woman is showing she's hiding her inner beauty? I don't believe so.

I believe modesty in a woman is much more attractive than a woman who wants to look sexy on the outside.

Very interesting article. Point well taken. Thank you

If only I had read this article when growing up .. This is an article that should be given to religious girls who have in their minds that question "why?"

I enjoyed this article however I hoped that the concept of modesty for men could have been discussed further. While I have a better understanding now of modesty for women and see why it can be compared to modesty of Torah scholars, I would like to see it discussed for men in general. It seems that sometimes men equate their specific time bound commandments with superiority and feel that modesty is just for women...or that modesty for men is ensuring that their wives or daughters dress/act modestly.

Very well written. Your article put things into perspective and proved that the concept of modesty (as related to women) is really for the benifit of the woman. Thank you. Keep up the good work!