(34) Ahuva , June 6, 2006

sometimes you need a push

This article was extremely well written - especially when you described how you became increasingly emotional and clingy. This is a fairly typical response (read the dance of intimacy by harriet lerner to learn more about it). However, I disagree with the person who quoted he's just not that into you. I know of several relationships where things were stalled, and a third party helped push things along. Sometimes a guy (or girl) can be indecisive and scared of moving along, and once they've been encouraged into making a decision, they're fine. It's possible that the author herself could have done the proposing at some point, or that a relative, therapist, or rabbi could have ended the stalemate. every case and every relationship is different and you can't generalize.

(33) Sheryl W. , June 5, 2006

Let me clarify my response then as I presumed that physicality was at play.
When I read words like "my boyfriend,"my romantic nature," "he wanted the time to be magical," "friends and family were expectantly waiting," "puppy love," "our relationship," I know we have left the frum zone and have entered the Hollywood "fantasy projection" zone.
What leads to dating limbo is our female tendency to lose our "boundaries": physical, mental, spiritual, and especially emotional, in pursuit of intimacy. Gila Manolson calls this a false intimacy. I have heard her say that the two sides of the same false intimacy coin are 1) getting physical quickly without commitment, and 2) getting emotionally bonded quickly without commitment. Whichever route you go, each leads to the same result--a false sense of easy relatedness.
I have so been where you are and speak both from experience and years spent learning how I was contributing to the situation so I could change my behavior. I know how painful it is, and my heart is with you.
I operate from the premise that we women are incredibly powerful and we give our power away constantly by not being true to ourselves and the signs that are right in front of us. The fact that you barely recognized yourself is a good sign that you weren't honoring your inner wisdom. Also the fact that "months" before, a friend had cautioned you about taking the relationship too casually. Also the fact that you referred to it as "a relationship" when in fact you were dating. Dating is NOT the relationship. Yes, relationships are dynamic, but that's not what you were in. Dating is a courtship, marriage is a partnership. When a courtship leading to marriage starts include "drama" rather than momentum, this is another sign that two people are not on the same page. You may not have been physical with this guy, but you were certainly emotionally in bed with him and everyone else involved and vested in making this "work."
Men are known by their actions. When a man cannot move things forward, the signs are there at the very beginning. It's we women who breeze right by them, waving.
Men have "windows" of timing -- their window is either open or it's not, and when you encounter a guy whose window is closed, you must recognize this as soon as possible and move on.
Finding your husband is a full-time pursuit, and I acknowledge you for your courage and resolve and willingness to share your path with others. I just don't want you or other women to waste precious time in the "fantasy" zone because that serves no one and keeps you from your true zivug. We can't know Hashem's ways, but as women, we can help each other see ourselves more clearly in the search. Btw, I highly recommend hiring a dating coach. I know using one allowed me to get out of my own way and get married. And I have made practically every mistake a woman can make!

(32) Ora , June 5, 2006

so why not talk to him?

Guys don't automatically know what us women are thinking. In fact, they can rarely begin to figure it out without some help from us. So why not have some pity on the poor guy and explain the problem? It sounds like he had no clue why a promising relationship went so wrong. Maybe talking about it openly (without threats or ultimatums, of course) could have cleared the air and lead to a solution (him proposing if he really meant to, or possibly taking some time apart to think things over and let the tension dissipate a bit). I know this isn't easy to do, but the ability to communicate well despite certain (often gender-based) differences is crucial for a successful marriage. If you can't bring yourself to do it now, it'll only come up again down the road.

I don't mean this as a criticism of anyone here, in many situations a man (or woman) simply can't bring him or herself to commit, and there's nothing the other partner can do to affect that. But I know personally of cases like the one described here, where the ultimate cause for all of the pain and frustration was a simple lack of understanding (he was waiting for the "perfect moment" because he thought that's what she wanted; she was just getting more and more upset, etc). My point is just, never give up on a relationship without at least one open, honest conversation about the problems. It can make the difference between a painful breakup and a happy marriage.

(31) Confused , June 5, 2006

How do you do it?

I was just in a situation almost identical to the one described. And did exactly what was described.
I'm having a very hard time getting over it. How did you do it? Its just so hard for me.
I don't know if I made the right decision.

(30) Anonymous , June 5, 2006

His decision and author's behavior

The author writes that her behavior became irrational, too emotional, too clingy. I think that no matter what the guy's intentions were originally most men wouldn't propose to a woman who acts this way. I think it is a very big deal for most guys. Next person that you date and you like - just try to relax and be a happy person around him. No matter what, acting so emotional and out of control won't get you engaged sooner.

(29) Anonymous , June 5, 2006

been there, done that

I cant help but wonder how many of us have been in your situation. And even more painful, how many of us have been in your situation--perhaps with the same boys! I could have written this article myself (though not nearly as articulately) but the emotion remains the same. I almost wish I could email it to him; as if that would accomplish anything. Yes, I still miss him. But as you say, I just think wistfully of this "relationship gone by" because the "timing wasn't right."
May Hashem send all of us our Mr. Right (who can make a commitment) soon! Thanks for sharing. And good luck.

(28) Daniela , June 5, 2006

An amazing book to recommend

Just curious; I was wondering if you (or anyone here for that matter) have ever heard of the book "He's Just Not That Into You" I recommend ANYONE in this position to read this book ! It's written by a nice, typical, smart, average guy who decided to just tell women like it is. It can save a great deal of heartbreak - he basically says that when men are not marriage minded at the time they're with us, they find it very difficult to give up the relationship they're enjoying at the moment, while at the same time find it too painful to risk hurting our feelings and often just don't really want to deal with it. They put us off because they don't want to tamper with the status quo - why should they ? They're having a good time, why change the relationship ? Ah, but we want to be married. Ok, so why do we want to marry someone who doesn't want to be married to us ? All the excuses in the world do not change the fact that 9 times out of 10, when men become marriage minded, they KNOW it, and they go out and find the right woman right away, and if they're with us at the time, they'll wait to find the right one while enjoying being with us. Bottom line is, according to the author of this book, if he's stringing you along and he is indeed ready to be married it means he wants to be married, just not enough to you. If he's not marriage minded and he's not willing to become commited, "he's just not that into you," and you're wasting your time while you could be out finding the guy who wants to marry you tomrrow. Period. Very hard to accept, especially when there is a lot of emotional investment, but no matter how hard it is to have to admit to yourself that he's just not into you enough to marry you, it has to be confronted. You have to be prepared to end the relationship, convince yourself that it IS indeed possible to find someone else and then go out and find someone else.

If he does truely want to be married,
but he's not proposing to you,
however much he wants to be married,
it's obviously not to you.

(27) Yehuda Pollack , June 4, 2006

Impressed by Prose

Wow, Ms. Freedman! Do you always write like that? That's beautiful writing.

(26) Anonymous , June 4, 2006

It's hard to accept the loss of time, love and the ensuing confusion

I wish I had not been in the place you describe, but I was and it was worse. When promises are held out to a willing heart, then not kept or even denied, it is definitely a loss of part of ourselves. Unless within the time of the relationship there are things done, or accomplished that have a positive and lasting effect, then it takes time to grieve. The years lost are just as important as our arms or legs, and once gone, they are not retrievable. Realizing this allows me to understand my right to work on the grief process. I hope you find your basherte.

(25) Gregg , June 4, 2006

A lucky man.

I do not know these two people, but I am so happy for them. The author is the woman. She admits to very irrational behavior. Although she rationalizes her irrational behavior very skillfully, the behavior remains. The man's reasoning overcame his hormones and prevented a tragic marriage.

(24) Sheryl W. , June 4, 2006

A Simple Formula

To the Women,
A simple formula underlies the reality of this story:
Physicality, i.e., sex, + dating = Dating Limbo
Limited or no physicality + dating = Engagement

There is no mystery here, just G'd's design. Men will be men, but how we honor our bodies and respond to men's physical desire is what paces and guides the growing attraction.
It's painful to learn this the hard way, so to shortcut the process, get educated about the Jewish approach to dating without physicality.

The choice is always ours, and choosing not to get physical before commitment ALWAYS leads to less suffering and greater objectivity.

THE AUTHOR RESPONDS
Dear Sheryl,

I wanted to let you know that your comment--that being shomer n'gia leads to engagement and physicality leads to the "dating limbo" I described--was totally off base. My then-boyfriend and I were completely shomer n'gia.

There are plenty of women who follow halachah to the fullest and still find themselves in the unenviable position of dating someone who can't move forward. I hope you're happily married and do not know the pain involved, but your assumption can be quite hurtful to women (and men) who are shomrei mitzvot and who have not found their zivug. They need your compassion, not your judgement (particularly when it's wrong).

Who knows why Hashem works things the way He does but there is one thing that is certain: Your quick conclusion is faulty. I hope you never convey such sentiments to women you may know personally. It's just not that simple.

"Lauren Freedman"

(23) Anonymous , March 13, 2005

Mirror Images

This story is almost a mirror image of my situation. I recently ended my relationship of 4 years with the man that I wanted to be my husband. I loved him with all my heart but the waiting got the best of me. I became resentful on many levels and felt that I had to move on before the situation got uglier due to my bitterness. He always said he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me so I couldn't understand why he wouldn't propose. There was a time in our relationship where he seemed very marriage oriented. He always talked about, "when we get married" and I believed him and held on to that dream for so long. After a while I couldn't do it anymore. I knew what I wanted out of life and he just didn't want to take the plunge with me. I felt like day by day I was getting farther and farther away from the marriage that I wanted. The only way I could really get what I wanted was to emotionally clear the space for someone who wanted the same thing as me. Even though it hurt me I knew I'd done the right thing.

(22) Helen , January 6, 2005

she was looking out not looking in

I felt when I read this account that the woman was under pressure from the outside world "her mother, friends etc" to created a committed relationship when she was not prepared or ready for such a commitment. She projected her 'pressure cooker feelings' onto her partner and made him responsible for the pause in their relationship. It is so very difficult to not get pulled along with the tide of other peoples expectations. It is even more difficult to show up for ourselves and witness what we feel and why and listen to the words we speak that we attribute to another - usually the thoughts are manufactured within us, about us. We need to hear from our own heart, hear what we speak, give it credence and move or not move along in accordance with our own place in our relationship. Listening to ourselves and our partner being prepared to want to know each other in such an intimate place, allowing our souls to explore and know one another not in prescribed time is the journey of relationship - it is our journey not someone elses. It is possible to turn around re-think and re-visit a relationship you have abandoned for whatever reason if on moving beyond it you feel that you misread it. Relationships are growing things and do not live in prescribed time.
Try again

(21) R. , May 6, 2004

VCR on indefinite pause

BS"D

I am living this story now. I am a VCR on indefinite pause. She is loving and affectionate. We share compatible goals and values. We trust, admire and respect each other. But she's scared that something might go wrong after we marry. As a result, we enjoy our relationship very much, but we have nowhere to go. I gave her my committment, but she has no timeframe for an answer, and I cannot wait forever: we are both in our late 30's. We understand each other's problem, but I am getting bitter and she starts to feel guilty. We both don't want to loose each other. May Hashem bring us soon and painlessly out of this mess to the place we ought to be... The only answer is to get stronger in bitachon and trust that, even though life is not exactly what we want it to be, Hashem loves us and wants only what is good for us.

(20) Ms. Priss , April 23, 2004

Come On Already

I have been dating a great guy for almost 4 years. After we'd dated for 1 month, he had to attend a company function in another town. He told me that married employees could bring their spouses and that "next year we'll go together." Ok, I thought, does that mean he thinks we'll be married by next year? I didn't know him too well but was really in love. So I was delighted and didn't mention my thoughts.

After 2 months, he told me that he wanted us to only see each other so our relationship could 'develop'. I wasn't dating anyone else and was happy to agree. These two signals indicated he was thinking about marriage. Or so I thought.

But flash forward, we have now been dating exclusively for almost 4 years and he has never proposed. When I've brought it up, he says, "I'm not ready."

We're not spring chickens. He's 52 and I'm 48. I am financially independent and very attractive. I carry my own weight. All this waiting has made me depressed and resentful. After seeing a therapist for over a year, she agrees with me. She feels funny about him being able to control the course of OUR relationship. Like he is holding all the power.

A year ago he had to have major surgery. I nursed him through that and he felt "like he was getting much closer to me, things were changing and for the better." Still there has been no proposal.

This summer he is taking me to visit his parents and family. I haven't the slightest idea if he plans to propose or just wants them to meet me to see if they 'approve' of me. (Oh, pul-lease.) Every week we are together there are many many warm moments of opportunity for him to propose. But he keeps missing those opportunities. I can't believe I am the only one feeling when the moments are right. Not after all this time. And see, I am starting to question whether I want marriage with him because he is so indecisive and also so willing to dangle my feelings over this cliff of indecision for so long. Not very kind and loving when you consider it from this viewpoint.

I am tired of being dangled. Marriage involves two people. If he isn't ready by now, he isn't going to be any more ready next month or next year. This is something I've had to face and accept.

I plan to end the relationship at the end of summer if he hasn't proposed. Relationships take a lot of time and energy. After 3 or 4 years, you know if you want to marry someone you're dating. Especially 4 years. That is such an incredibly long time to wait for a proposal. I didn't expect it in year 1 and was willing to wait through year 2. But his indecisiveness at this point has me thinking that perhaps he's not the right lad for me. I want a guy who sees me for the gem I am and wants me in his life forever. I don't want some guy who loves me but is scared to marry me and only proposes because he's scared he'll lose me. That's not good enough.

I've been very patient. But there comes a time when you have to get off the fence. That time is quickly approaching. Even if he proposed tonight, I'd want us to go through counseling because I think this dragging his feet issue indicates something that could make marriage with him extremely trying.

One thing I've learned is that if I ever promise to date someone exclusively again, I plan to question his intentions very seriously RIGHT THEN AND THERE. If the guy runs away, good riddance. I don't have time to waste on men who aren't really serious. And I know that I do not do well in dating limbo. I don't believe in following a set timeline. I believe in going with how things are feeling between us. We are both committed to each other, so why is he holding us back?

The hard part is I love him. But if I have to set him free for him to find out that he really loves me, then that's what I have to do. I haven't given him an ultimatum. I've given myself one.

(19) Evan Gadol , February 21, 2004

Ease up ladies!

Maybe this is a very typical male reaction, but I feel like you ladies are being a bit hard on us guys. I would love to get married right now, if I could find the right girl, consequences be damned. But the fact of the matter is that guys in modern culture have been emmasculated in many ways. We are told to act sensitively and be aware of a woman's feelings, and to not be the beer-guzzling, football-watching Neanderthal of days gone by, but if we are too cautious, woman chastise us for being weak and claim they want a man that is strong and sure of himself. Pardon me for being a bit frustrated, because I see perfectly wonderful women dating perfect horrors of men, and I am trying to figure out what is wrong. I feel like I am somehow missing something here, because this does not seem uncommon.

(18) Gavriel , October 22, 2003

Take it slow....

Coming from a guy, it seems to me that women sometimes come on too strong. Specifically women will demonstrate (consciously or not) that they like the guy a lot and want to move to the next stage in dating while the guy is simply not ready. (Please note that women may not always realize they're sending this message)

Often, guys just need more time. My advice is to just take things at the guys pace and let him pursue you! Let him set the dates, let him call, let him give to you and treat you. Take his offers for a drink or meal or whatever.

One of the worst things is when a guy is pressured into something he's unsure about. He will want to just go back in his shell!

(17) Fran , October 1, 2003

yes, now you know

I can't believe how similar my last relationship was to yours. I ended a relationship in large part to delayed commitment and looking back, I few regrets, except that I should have ended it sooner. I'm in a new relationship now and a smarter and wiser person than ever before. I've learned to listen-- and that actions speak louder than words... You've made the right decision and you'll look back and know it was right as soon as you meet the right guy WHO WILL KNOW at the right time... good luck and g-d bless...

(16) Anonymous , September 22, 2003

Thanks! Trying to get over just this type of relationship

I went through this exact type of relationship (I am out of it now). Why do men talk about marriage and getting engaged if they are not ready? Once they do, they fire up your hopes and then things seem to go all wrong. I told my ex -- don't tell someone you are ring shopping -- if you are that serious -- just put the ring on her finger, for heaven's sake! No one likes to have the expectations dashed or teased with the prospect of something that will never happen. Total waste of time!

(15) Nancy , October 9, 2002

Hit the nail on the head!

I read this half-crying and half relieved..someone else experienced this! Thanks Laura Freedman for the funny metaphor-laden (overcooked pasta)but very serious subject.

(14) Anonymous , January 4, 2002

Response to esqnz@aol.com and

Consider the fact that a man not commiting is equal to a women giving an ultimatum. In both cases it's "my way or the highway".
Also, consider (and if you've been in a working relationship that's lasted more than a year you know this to be true) WAITING past the "boiling point" does not afford you more clarity. Sometimes it actually makes the waters of decision more murky.

(13) Anonymous , December 30, 2001

This was me. I totally relate.

I was in almost the exact same situation (for 7 years!) It really is hard to know when to put your foot down or just go with the flow (but for how long?) Anyhow, we are no longer together and I feel as if I wasted a whole lot of time. Not only that, I feel so lost after always having someone to call on the phone at any time, someone to hug, and just that someone special. How do you go without it after knowing it was always there for so long and will I ever have anyone I can like feel this with again. When?

(12) DonnaK , October 5, 2001

Don't I know it!!

I feel her pain, since I am going through a similar situation myself. The difference is, we're nowhere close to considering marriage! I am just looking for a way to get closer and have been met with verbal resistance. So I am about to end what might have been a promising relationship.
One thing I can't seem to understand is just when IS the time right for additional closeness & committment? One can't rely on chronology, one relationship's 3 months is another's 3 years. I wish I had a better sense of when the timing is right. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

(11) Anonymous , June 18, 2001

OH BOY...NOW I KNOW

Oh boy....now I know what I did wrong. I am the male in this article...only I am female. And my beau became impatient when I was stalling in answering his question. And I thought that if I couldn't give an answer, then it was not the situation for me. But after reading this article and reading some of the comments it was a real eye opener. I must be willing to jump and make a move before I lose him entirely. Thank you to all those who have written...

(10) Anonymous , May 16, 2001

Well Done!

Reading this article, it seemed as though someone else had written down my own experience. I was certain that this guy was the one for me. We had been dating for 2 1/2 years and after about 2 years he started talking about getting engaged. I didn't initiate the conversation, but once it was discussed, the seed was planted and I thought it was a great idea. Needless to say, after several more conversations and many bad excuses later, he hadn't popped the question. I gave him an altermatim, which he responded to by 'I want to spend the rest of my life with you' I told him to propose there and then, and he said that it wasn't romantic enough. I agree with some of the other comments, there is no right moment. If you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, it is getting on with the rest of you life that you should be worried about, not how romantic your proposal was and if it was better than everyone else's proposal.
I slowly realised, before giving him a second proposal deadline, that he was not all that I had hoped he would be. I too knew of his faults, and thought I could live with them all, but his weakness and indecision proved me wrong. All of my friends thought I was so brave and independant to break up with him after so long, but it was the best thing for both of us. I encourage any woman in the same situation to take control of her own future. If it was meant to be, it will happen.

(9) Anonymous , May 15, 2001

Same situation.....

Wow, you just described perfectly what I experienced - I dated a man for three and a half years, and we were madly in love. He did the same thing, waited too long for "the right moment". By the time that came along, I was bitter and angry and resentful, not the way to start a marriage. So I decided to move on, declined the proposition, and I know that I will not allow myself to be placed in a similar situation again. If he cannot make a commitment after too long a period of time, there will never be a "right moment".

(8) Debra Alvo , May 14, 2001

what is the 'right answer'?

I commend you for finally leaving a relationship where one could not make a move to the next level. I agree that sometimes people do need a little push, not a big ultimatum. I think both men and women do get scared, but both parties need to decide if it is indeed scarier to spend your life without this partner than to get to the next level. It's just a shame that there is so much fear. My husband and I both come from divorced parents and yet he proposed the night we met, we engaged 3.5 weeks later and were married within 6 months. I think in life we need to learn the WHYS of dating. Do we date to date or do we date to find our life partner. If we can answer this first, a lot less hearts will be broken. Debra

(7) Lethe .1 , May 13, 2001

Brilliant

I don't think I've ever seen someone describe the imperative of phases in a relationship so concisely.

I don't think people are willing to admit the need for progress towards the next stage.

(6) Anonymous , May 13, 2001

Right on the Button

I can sympathize. I was dating this man whom I was convinced would make an excellent husband and father. He was so giving and so ethical, and so much a gentleman and a mensch, that it just blew me away. He told me that he had wanted to marry me from the night we met, but then he just didn't ask. It was partly my fault, because I had told him that I wanted him to be more set financially before we could move forward. But people kept bugging us, asking us when we were getting married. And my mom did the same thing! Asking us if she could go away for the summer, if that would interfere with "any plans?" Finally, I couldn't take it any more. I couldn't live in limbo. So I told him that if he hadn't made a definitive move one way or the other by next Monday, I would have to start dating other people. He was no more set financially than before, but I needed to move forward. He told me that the thought of me dating anyone else made him sick to his stomach. The next week, he drove me to this pretty overlook on one of our drives in the country, and asked me to marry him. We haven't looked back since. And you know what, he's doing pretty well financially. He pays the rent, and we're extremely happy. Sometimes you need to give the other person a little push. And have a little faith in someone who has great qualities. Trust your own judgment.

(5) Elizabeth Swed , May 13, 2001

You were right

To Lauren: Women have the gift of a keen sense of timing. By not moving forward when you expected him to, your boyfriend betrayed your trust, and thus your natural feminine intuition sensed that this man may not be a good mate for you because he did not propose in sync with your proper sense of timing.

(4) Marc Esquenazi , May 13, 2001

The other side of the story

Here goes that cliche' "it takes two to tango". Sometimes in my observations I see women pushing a man to get married and then completely losing interest when the man cannot commit at her time table. Heres the focus, if she (in the above story) is so willing to leave the relationship because he wont marry her, then I'd say that they both just avoided an expensive divorce. Statistically, it is women who all too often seek and initiate a divorce and not for the traditional reasons, adultery, abuse, etc.......... but rather they simply wanted to move on. This simply is the way more and more women think nowadays. It almost seems as if marriage is a game and that if it doesnt happen when they want it or when they demand it, then good bye. This reeks of guys that dump a girl when she will not put out when he wants. Where is the real meaning of relationships in all this? Isnt it, seeking compatibility? or is it a race of some sorts. The other side of the story. From a Dallas, attorney who does more divorces than he cares to do.

(3) Anonymous , May 13, 2001

Lack of Communucation

She was waiting and waiting for that ring -- but it never said she talked to him about her anxiety. She blames him -- but it's half her fault for not communicating.

(2) jac kie , May 13, 2001

the right moment?? BS!

The right moment is nonsense. If someone says that to you run in the other direction. Marriage is means that now there's another person to consider and that starts with the proposal. If the person is truly ready to commit they are not looking for the "right moment". They just want to do it. Or they talk to the other person about when and where to do it. My husband proposed to me after dinner. We were in the car and I was having a coughing jag (-:. I was the one who was afraid. I had to look at myself and decide whether I was afraid of him or of the commitment. Most times I think it is fear of the commitment unless you haven't really spent the dating time getting to know each other. If there were questions her boyfriend had he needed to ask them. Otherwise he needed to ask himself what he was waiting for. My guess? It's not the "rght moment" He simply was never going to marry her. He simply didn't want to. In the end he didn't want to mess up his nice lifestyle. She should have asked him outright (nicely) what it was he felt he was waiting for. If he said "the right moment" she should ask him what he thinks that is. Dollars to donuts he couldn't answer. There is no "right moment" for any life transition. Birth and death don't arrive at the "right moment". If he wanted a right moment he would've been taking into account what she wanted, even with the setting of the proposal. In the end the setting doesn't matter. What matters is the words and those words were never going to come. She should've dumped him long before this. I've seen friends go through this and it's painful, even if they eventually do get married. Ladies if you're ready and the guy's not, ask him if he knows why not. If he knows, ask him if he wants to work on getting ready. If he doesn't, run!! Trust me, you'll know the right one by the fact that HE is pushing YOU to get married. I hate to say it but the RULES girls are right about that one. If the guy isn't eager it may not happen and if it happens the reluctance is still there even in the marriage. When he's eager to marry, no matter what problems come up he's there because he wanted this enough to risk change. That's what it boils down to. Then there's no garbage about the right moment because your life doesn't happen in the right moment. Usually it happens in the wrong moments. The guy you want is the one who wants to stick around through the wrong moments.

(1) Anonymous , May 13, 2001

different needs

it looked like the guy was stringing her along till he was sure that it was her that he wanted, and maybe just long enough for her to realize he was not right for her. better, that at this point they no go forward. marriage, kids and divorce of a bad relationship that a much longer time to heal and get over