Israelis Performing Wagner in Germany

....and very sad that ANY professional musician would feel the need to play the works of a man who personified evil, that israeli musicians felt compelled to play his work, in germany no less, is beyond comprehension and tragic.....truly tragic. have we learned nothing? have we no pride????

while I totally agree with the author, I believe some good has come out of this concert. Can you imagine, how it would repulse Wagner to hear his music played by jews?? How neo nazis must feel sick knowing that their favorite composer is being played by Jews? It's the ultimate come-back!

Im sure Wagner is delighted that his music is being played by secular anti-religious jew-hating Jews... Shame, Shame, Shame on anyone who listens to this Jew haters music...

As much as I despise Wagner it would be reckless to try to ban his music. If we tried to ban the achievements of everyone who tried to annihilate the Jews we would not be left with much. The Jews are just not a very popular people. Plus we would be taking the same practice as Hamas is trying to do with Israel. Let us be the shining example, the light to all nations. I have just returned from a Birthright trip to Israel and one of the things that touched me the most was when Israelis took weapons used against them and turned them into national pride. For example, the mezuzahs surrounding the entrances to the Old City are shells from the Jordanian legion in the War of Independence. The Yeshiva at Sderot used the rockets launched at them from Gaza to make a menorah. A Roman column that was probably built by a Jewish slave was used by the Jews of Gush Etzion to pave roads to the Kibbutz. Now in the Old City the central Roman road built through the city that Jews were forbidden to use is being opened again for Jewish stores. I feel a great sense of Jewish pride when I see us use things that were meant to destroy us to instead build ourselves up. What greater victory can we achieve over our enemies we do not let them bound us but us them to build ourselves up. That is my take on the debate.

I am told Vanessa Redgrave is one of the greatest actors of our time. She is the same person that danced before a band of palestinians terrorists with a machine gun in her hand, a vile and disgusting antisemite. I am sure there are people who would admire her acting skills and forget her rabid antisemitism. after all, art is art. for Jews to play Wagner and in Germany is a despicable act. Shame on them and shame on anybodywho agrees with them. Joseph

The reaction of many Israelis against Wagner the man, one of the vilest human beings in history, is completely understandable. The subsequent Nazi connection is well documented. Nevertheless, Wagner and his family members mentioned in the article are all dead, and what remains is some of the greatest music ever written. I concur with Leonard Bernstein, who was quoted as saying, "Richard Wagner, I despite you. On my knees." I pray for the day when antisemitism will be dead everywhere and Wagner's music will be playable everywhere. The first has remained tragically elusive, but we can enable the second. (Incidentally, the first sentence of the article is mistaken in describing the Siegfried Idyll as an "opera." )

Music is the expression of the soul. The arts are a collaboration of our highest selves with the Devine. They represent our best impulse.... to create beauty, meaning. Hatred is merely an expression of ego, projected pain and fear. Art represents the best of what and who we are, the light of the Holy One even if it occasionally (as in the case of Wagner) is surrounded by the dark shards of his dreadful ideology. One might say the best holiest of the man is in his music. By performing his music with awareness, this chamber group is contributing to the redemption of The Light of Tikune Olam.

The key for me, from a Jewish perspective, was nicely stated by Steve: "There's nothing in Wagner's work that is, in and of itself, remotely anti-Semitic." No one proposes Picasso as a role model for relationships with women, yet his art -- including his portrayal of women -- epitomizes many of the finest highest aspirations of men and women worldwide. The message of Wagner's music is light years removed from the hatred he espoused. What better way to celebrate the best that is within us, the tselem elokim that resides in all humanity, than to exalt the music and simultaneously expose the darkest elements of its creator? What better way for the the finest musicians of Israel to serve our prophetic role as or lagoyim than to perform Wagner along with Mahler and Mendelssohn in Germany? What better statement can Jewish performers of world caliber make in 2011 than to proclaim the glory of that which was best about Wagner and that which he shared with Mahler and Mendelssohn, refusing to accept a view that Wagner must be dismissed from the human race as he tried in his nonmusical life to dismiss others. We are one humanity. That is the message the orchestra brought to Germany, as surely as dream of unity we recite at the end of the Aleinu.

YOU KNOW, i think the comments of the musicians themselves are more relevant than the accusations of tonedeafness or insensity. Every man has something of the image of Hashem, even the evildoer or radical thinker. Why not concentrate on what is good, not on what is planned to do harm. Musicians often consider music to be something universal. Being good at playing means to do the job, not just choosing. And besides, is it noth worth while to play Wagner "on the spot" to be able to play good and superb israeli music as well, thus proving that "the worm" actually is the caterpillar producing the brilliant butterfly? "Vilhelm"

DISGUSTING. WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO SAY?

Once created, music stands on its own two feet. Hate the composer all you want, whether it's Wagner or Mussorgsky, but it's silly to ban the music. The music is separate from the man who created it. Once created, it becomes part of humankind, and outlives the creator. In Wagner's case, it outshines him, as well. Wagner's music is glorious, even though he was anything but. That Hitler loved or used it is unimportant. Hitler may have loved a sunny, cloudless day, but that would not keep me from loving it as well. I hate Hitler for what he did. I do not hate Wagner for the music he wrote. I may hate his values, but his music is just that, music. Why shun music? Who would that hurt? The Vienna Philharmonic shunned Mahler, until Bernstein forced its musicians to play his music. Its rendition of his 5th is magnificent. Before that, what a waste was its shunning of his music. Playing Wagner's music hurts no one, regardless of how many it may offend. I love it and will always listen to it. His Prize Song from Meistersinger will always be one of my favorites, as will his Prelude and Leibestod from Tristan and Isolde. I will always champion Wagner's music and do my best to make sure that people I know are aware of the kind of person he was. I will not belittle my hatred for Nazi conduct by lumping it together with my revulsion of Wagner's attitudes, values or pronouncements. By the way, Wagner was quite a while ago played in Israel by an orchestra (the Berlin Statskapelle) conducted by Daniel Barenboim, the piece being the Tristan and Isolde prelude. People were offended, and however much Daniel may have suffered as a result, the music caused no injuries or deaths. Julian Tepper Placitas, NM/Bethesda, MD

There is something called respect and it doesn't matter how much I like Wagner, as a way to identify with my family I will not give in to this 'great pleasure' of listening to him even on earphones, or possess his music There is also something called self respect where a country should show some of it. Debasing ourselves in front of the world by using an Israeli representative orchestra, on the day of Wagner's birthday, in the place where he was born will only bring more debasement on Jews. You showed us all your great knowledge in classical music and we are impressed. Now how about some empathy? By the way Barenboim is an Israel hater who plays for Hamas and PA, he is not a friend of the Jews.

Some may recall that Hitler was a painter, in other words, an artist. He was a mediocre painter who painted pictures for post cards. He could not make a living with his "art." Nonetheless, art being art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I hear that crucifixes in urine are considered art in America and covering buildings with colored cloth likewise. Listening to the music of Wagner, for it's own sake, music being music, an art, is akin to purchasing, let's say, a book of Hitler's paintings or going to a museum that exhibits them. Never would I do such. Music or painting, though an art, does not transcend all other values or virtues. Jewish musicians who can refrain from playing Wagner are to be admired as moral people, who properly assess the importance of principles that are higher than even "art." Jewish musicians who separate Wagner's music from his racist ideology have sold out. Indeed, they are a "freak show" that many "cultured" Germans want to see. Can you imagine the conversations after the performance: "Never did I think I would see Jews playing Wagner, at least not until pigs can fly."

I do not agree with the comment that Wagner's music played in Germany by an Israeli orchestra is a disgrace. Yes, Wagner was anti-semitic and a horrible man personally, but he created great music. Yes, Mahler, Mendelssohn any many others were banned. But if an Israeli group cannot play Wagner, then the nazis have won. Let them see that the Jews have survived, despite all they have done. My parents, holocaust survivors, enjoyed Wagner in Vienna before WW2 and enjoyed it after the war.

People who say "yes" to Wagner's music and try to separate it from his anti-Semitic ideology remind me of those who praise Hitler for his economic and infrastructure feats (building the Autobahn, etc.) while ignoring, downplaying, or even temporarily setting aside his monstrous crimes. Hitler's legacy is genocide, even if he built the best highways in the world at the time or allegedly reversed runaway unemployment of the Depression. Likewise, Wagner represents modern anti-Semitism, pardon the expression, par excellence. Those who love his music and perform it publicly, engage in moral relativism and are themselves amoral. Wagner, like Hitler, is anti-Semitism incarnate. His racist views were more important to him than even his music. Wagner was in his own mind first and foremost an anti-Semite and proud of it. He was a musician second. For musicians, conductors and orchestra directors to raise Wagner's music above all else is revisionism and a farce.

I agree that the orchestra should not have played Wagner's music in Germany. We should, forever, take a stand that "never again" will always be in our hearts. There is so much beautiful music, why not let us make a statement of principal. Why acknowledge a monster for anything. It is so insensitive. It is as if we have forgoten with the passage of time.

As a non Jew with a love of classical music and a deep respect for Jews, especially Israelie Jews, and of course Holocaust survivors, I am not sure if I were a Jew how I would feel.Why was Richard Wagner so extremely prejudiced? Ignorance perhaps?

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact the the works of Jew-Hater Wagner were performed not by a German orchestra, which wagner would have wished. Instead, his works were performed by people the very people he would have probably wished would not ever perform his works. BTW, I still understand why his works are so unpopular with the Jewish People, but i cannot help but see some irony in this.

I think that for Wagner, it is a virtual slap in the face that his music was played by a Jewish Israeli orchestra within others pieces of Jewish composers. It is very ironic!

nd i am not saying lets forget the past.

It is a disgrace. What has happened to the Jewish people that we side with those - both living and dead - who wish to destroy us?! No other people in history has ever behaved this way.

If Wagner wanted to expel the "cursed Jewish scum" from society, then all Jews should feel the same way toward his music. I think it was a disgrace for the Israeli orchestra to go to Bayreuth to play the music, and it wouldn't bother me in the least, if I never heard Wagner's music again. I am a singer, and I stand by my words.

I wonder how much they were paid for losing their National Dignity and from whose fund?

Jewish self hatred takes many forms. This is like the dog who licks the feet of the people who beat it. The feet licking brings on more beating. Enough beatings lead to contempt. Enough contempt leads to killing. If they hate their Jewish selves so much, why don't they just kill themselves? I am a proud Jew and not a dog.

It really is disgraceful and not redeemed by the orchestra also playing Mendelsohn and Mahler. Perhaps if they had only played post-WWII modern Jewish/Israeli composers, they would have made a point -- we're still here and we have great artists!!

I fail to understand how they could ignore history and pursue their artistic licence and perform Wagner's works in Germany. I wonder whwt he would have thought about this?

My father loved Wagner's music. And so does Daniel Baremboim. I don't. But it is music, wonderful music, they say. And indeed I think that israeli musicians playing Wagner in Germany, is a triumph, is the ultimate image of the 21st century, and how people can overcome tragedies and step forward. We have survived, we have thrived, and we are playing music, yes. Just as Tchaicovsky is not about homosexuality, or Rodrigo is not about blindness. It is music, and it talks to our brains in another level.

I commend those Jews who are bigger than their hate-filled enemies; they are NOT trying to "show how liberal they are"! I am not a fan of Wagner, but i were moved by his music, i would simply enjoy it for what it is and ignore the man from which it came. The Nazis were mental midgets-- ill with petty obsession, brainwashed, or evil. And they lost. So why not embrace the ironies of life? >>One of the many ironies reflecting the complexities of Wagner and the responses his music provokes is that, like many German-speaking Jews of the pre-Hitler epoch, Theodore Herzl, a founder of modern Zionism, was an avid admirer of Wagner's music, whatever he felt about the composer's anti-Semitism.[37]

I agree, it is unbelievable that an Israeli orchestra would ever play Wagner, more unbelievable that they would actually play it in Germany!! Someone should pay for this with their job!!

The view that someone's Art can , and should , be separated from that person's politics and philosophy is understandable in that it allows for appreciation of the art . However , this view fails to recognize that great performers/artists are often accorded a respect / adulation in areas other than the very specific realm of their art . Youth in particular are often unduly influenced . Celebrating Wagner's music will lead many to celebrate Wagner himself , thus introducing or furthering anti-Jewish feelings in those people ( many of whom are young) . Those who might argue that there should be care taken to avoid this might not realize how hard that is to do . It might also be very true that the remaining survivors , and even their children , will be greatly offended by this . Their feelings count too . In all , the decision to perform Wagner was obviously NOT thought out well , but rather viewed from the very narrow , self- serving lens of the people who wanted to play the music

Yes a national disgrace.

I feel very sad and outraged by the Israeli Chamber Orquestra, giving a concert of german Nazi Wagner , in german land,betraying Holocaust survivors and teir family.Better would be playing Israeli music composed by Jewish people.This is our Victory, cause were still alive

Shame on them

Whose idea was this? Doesn't that person/s know there is plenty of other composers whose music is as fine or even better? Why they didn't perfom the Jewish composers only? Portraying israelis or Jews as someone who is accepting of the art of an evil soul makes us look bad. What does Paternosto mean by "divide the man from his art"? Is he telling the world we do accept double standards?????

I think wagner the man was a vile horrid antisemite BUT his music was a G-d given present to humanity justlike a vile antisemite can invent medicine that helps all humanity. Both the music and the medicine are G-ds gift to humanity,Nobody should question G-ds program,

If someone develops a medicine, it is a technical development and will help people no matter how wonderful or terrible the inventor (though if he developed it, say, by abusing people for his experiments,the matter gets more complicated). But music is not just a technical thing. It is an expression of the emotions and the soul -- the person's inner self, inner world. Playing the music (perhaps also listening?) connects you to that inner world -- the performed piece contains the expression of the composer's inner world filtered through (and aded to by) the performer's inner world. Music is not medicine.

BUSHA VE HERPA LE MI SHE HIHLIT LENAGEN BA GERMANY WAGNER. ATEM SHOHAHIM MAHER MA SHE ANAHNU AVARNU IN GERMANY VE HA ISH HA ZE HAIA TOTALI A N T I S E M I T,.PEOPLE PLEASE D O N O T F O R G E T. WE HAVE NO OTHER NESHEK TO FIGHT AGAINST THIS ARTIST ONLY TO BOYCOT HIS MUSIC. I LIVE IN CANADA BUT I'M AN ISRAELI CITIZEN AND LOVE ISRAEL .

This would be acceptable if the publicised reason was to flaunt the Jewish Continuation in the Face of Nazi Evil with the Ultimate revenge of the Jews playing their precious music: Alas their pandering to the art world with such anathema as separating the monster from his opinion is pathetic and shameful. Is this not what the Nazi's themselves did? They successfully separated the Jews from their humanity in the German's eyes.....

Condemning Wagner's music is the same thing as condemning a Jewish painter's painting because he/she is Jewish. That painter is condemned because of his/her beliefs. We have to be able to separate the art/music from the persons beliefs. The only thing that matters is whether the art is good or the music sounds great. I don't care at all for Mel Gibson's opinions, but I will still watch the movies he was in because they were good (except the Passion of the Christ, which I have not and will never watch). I also occasionally listen to Wagner, even though he was a lowlife anti-Semite.

None of this has to do with being "leftist," or "gaining German approval." Wagner's music is absolutely key to the history of western art. The fact is that western history is shot full of anti-Semites, racists, homophobes, etc., whose work transcends their idiotic political views. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The alternative is to never read the Constitution because most of its authors were overt racists who unapologetically presided over native American genocide, never support the American armed forces because it court-marshalled gay people for being gay, and never have an Italian meal because the one-time anti-Semitic Vatican used to rule much of that country. Where does it end? There's nothing in Wagner's work that is, in and of itself, remotely anti-Semitic. So why deprive yourself of great art in this case but not in all the others? It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The rationale of the Israeli chamber group to perform in one of the centers of Nazi culture AND perform Wager's music there, knowing (or they should've known) his despicable views advocating Jewish destruction, and then saying the man "should be separated from his music" is like saying Hitler was a terrible man....but at least he made the trains run on time. Or on a different level...it's like the media saying "When Israel gets missiles fired on her by Gaza, Israel's firing back is just adding to a 'cycle of violence'..." It all sounds like moral equivalency to me.

i don't care how talented a composer he was. is there such a dearth of compositions that his MUST be played? NO! this is just leftist jews leaning over backwards to show how 'liberal' they are. his works should be destroyed and never performed again, just as his memory should be erased from the earth. there is plenty of beautiful music that can be played. playing his is just a disgraceful political statement.

Wagner's music is pompous and the plots to his operas are straight out of pre-medieval cave dweller society and laughably ridiculous. With so much good music in the world who needs Brunnhilde?

A total disgrace! This is so pathetic, it's amazing what people do to favor their own personal agenda and careers, and are now so happy to celebrate with the people that tried to exterminate us! Unfortunately they are not the only ones, Daniel Barenboim, who selected Wagner's music as an encore for the Israel Festival in 2001, was happy to conduct the Berlin Philarmonic during the celebration of German reunification and Daniel Libeskind, a renown architect, competed and won to design the first ever German Military Museum in Dresden to celebrate and honor the "glory" of the german army!!! ....what is this need to gain german approval?? it's revolting

His music should not have been performed by the Israelis.

DISGUSTING

The germans don't want the Israelis, they hate us all - I don't want to wax poetic with flowery phrases about this unconscionable act. It is a terrible tragedy that such an act could place, but when people leave the Torah way there is no limit to what their actions could lead them to. G-d is showing us his anger at our actions, He is giving us many signs to urge us to return to Him, please fellow Jews, follow the Torah, find your way back, and let the Jews be a true shining light for all the world.

We live in a world with an ever increasing amount of Jew Hatred. However, what is worse if the hatred from within. This example of Jews performing Wagner in Bayreuth is yet another example of self-hating Jews. Their gross insensitivity to Holocaust Survivors and their decendents, and any Jew who identifies with our brothers and sisters who were tortured and killed by the Nazis is shameful and despicable.

Being the child of a survivor, it would never occur to me to prop up anything created by an anti-semite. This is a slippery slope! First we say,"he was bad but his music was good"...before you know it, we will be saying "I don't agree, but respect his views'. We must alway keep a massive distance between us and those who hate us. I alway tell my kids all the virture of marrying Jewish. One of my major points is that the non-jewish spouce may not hate Jews, but chances are, a few generations back, there was a Jew-hater in their bloodline.

and Hitler was just a poor misunderstood neb.

This article is silly. I would shudder to think that the fact that I like a particular book, painting, sculpture or piece of music is tantamount to an endorsement of the artist's personal views on... well, anything. Wagner was, by all accounts, a fairly rotten human being, but wrote some beautiful music. Let him writhe in torment thinking about how much pleasure his music is giving to Jews!

i would have no pleasure listening to the music of such a man, no matter how beautiful it would be if not associated with him. there is no dearth of beautiful music in the world. i would forgo the 'pleasure' of giving his works noteriety.

This is the same problem repeated over and over again. The Jews never learn. They still do not undersand, and never will that whatever Jews do will always be miscontrued for the worst. If they remain insular and distance themselves from the world, they are unwilling to assimilate and are different. If they do assimilate, and accept Jew haters into their culture, such as Wagner, stating that we have to "separate the man from his music," they might some day find a way to accept Hitler g-d forbid, "separating the man from his art" Anything is possible. Only by realizing that there is no fogiveness for these Jew haters, doing so just gives the new Jew haters more ammunition.

I wouldn't spend a penny buying Wagner's music. I just don't like his music. As for playing Wagner's music, and in Germany, it is wrong to give recognition to the memory of such a despicable person. Not because he was an anti-Semite - a majority of Europeans were an are still - he went further in expounding and promoting his hatred of Jews, to the point of extermination. No one should play his music. His memory and legacy should be erased.

100% disgraceful. next we should sing the Greman national anthem in public. It seems that instead of "Never Forget" they are practicing Forget as soon as possible.

These Israeli musicians have given no thought to the consequences of their actions.

These are the same people, the "Erev Rav" of our nation who vote for Arab fanatics calling them "freedom fighters" . These are the same people who in the name of art throw their heritage, religion and country to our enemies. Israel as a country should be ashamed today!

I think that it is a great Triumph for the Jewish People and a Sanctification of the "NAME' of "HA-SHEM" that a group of Israeli musicians can go to Germany and proclaim to the world that, 'We are still here and we are proud to let you know that we recognize that music comes from "HASHEM" and hatred comes from MANkind. We will not confuse the two and acknowledge that there is always hope for Humanity through Universal Truths such as music'.

Hitler considered certain types of music to be decadent and inferior (Jewish creations). Islamists, of which there are a few tens of millions around, consider modern music to be not only decadent, but reflective of non-Islamic values of the West which must be eliminated. Music is hardly a "universal truth," whatever that means. Spare us the inane, vapid "universal truth" description. It's a great triumph as long as Jewish musicians can refuse to play the music of anti-Semites like Wagner.

It's mind boggling how the yezer ha ra (evil inclination) causes people to find excuses for their physical pleasures even by using G-d's name in vain.

this way they supports these who claim that shoa (ashmada) never happend

In a vew words about this very disgracing act those insane Jewish musicians commit. When the conductor, Roberto Paternostro, confess that "Wagner's ideology and anti-Semitism were terrible, but he was a great composer." It is like to admit and say: "Hitler's ideology, his anti-Semitism, his nazism were terrible horryfics, yes, but he was a great dog-lover, and hi himself murdered not a single Jew." What ashame this insane Jewish' players brought on all the Jews and Israel. This kind og crazy thinking reveals the weakness, show the Jewish Incorrect lntellectuality in work. No wonder why some insane Jews outside Israel declare themeselves being the admirers of the nazis pluss all other related beasts...