A recent article of mine discussed the illusory power of girls’ clothing and the real strength we can teach our daughters. One reader’s question really caught my eye: "What about the boys?" This is a valid question and it cuts to the heart of misconceptions about the Jewish concept of tzniyut, which is commonly (but incompletely) translated as “modesty.”
The two largest misconceptions about tzniyut are (1) that it’s just about clothing and (2) that it’s just for girls. Each of these is wholly inaccurate. Yes, how much skin a person displays is an aspect of modesty, but there’s so much more to it than that. How we act, how we talk and how we treat others are all a part of tzniyut, which doesn’t mean to be “modest” so much as to act with propriety and dignity.
Before addressing either of these misconceptions, we have to acknowledge the elephant in the room: the apparent double standard. One often sees articles discussing tzniyut vis-à-vis clothes made available to and worn by women and, especially, teenage girls. How often does one see an analogous article addressing the male audience? Don’t bother counting, I’ll do it for you: never.
The reality is that fashion and society commonly position women, not men, as sex objects. Women’s legs are common sights in business offices, but men’s aren’t. Women’s shoulders, backs and more are readily visible at weddings and other formal occasions and men’s aren’t. So if we spend what appears to be a disproportionate amount of time talking about women’s clothes, that’s because it’s the most pressing aspect in our culture. But tzniyut is much, much more.
Related Article: Beauty Industry vs Modesty
The Talmud discusses men’s clothing at least as much as it discusses women’s. Just a few examples:
- In Yoma (35b), we are told that Rabbi Elazar ben Harsom’s colleagues would not permit him to wear a finely-woven robe because it was too sheer and his form was visible through the translucent material;
- In tractate Shabbos (114a), clothes are referred to as the things that honor a person. It continues that it’s considered shameful for a scholar to wear stained or patched clothing, as such are beneath his station;
- Also in tractate Shabbos, on page 113a, we are told that it is unseemly for a person to be overly concerned with fashion, except when it comes to wearing one’s best for Shabbos.
These are just a few of the statements about clothing that are directed at men. But even though tzniyut is concerned with clothes for both men and women, that’s not the entirety of it by any stretch. What one has on the outside is important, but it’s more important that it truly reflect what’s on the inside.
What one has on the outside is important, but it’s more important that it truly reflect what’s on the inside.
One can be covered from head to toe and still be immodestly dressed. For example, let’s say that a person is wearing a T-shirt or a button with a sexually explicit or provocative message. That would still be considered inappropriate. Now let’s take that message off that person’s chest and put it in his or her mouth. The clothing may now be “modest,” but their words are not.
Tzniyut is largely about how we act. For our sons, the pressures of advertising and clothing manufacturers may not create a crisis of dress, but we still face a huge crisis of action. In our society, the “macho” attitude directed at boys is vast. That’s not an authentic Jewish value; we’ve never been big on machismo.
Look at our Jewish role models. We strive to emulate Abraham’s acclaimed trait of hospitality. Jacob is renowned as a “dweller in tents,” who embraced study. Moses demonstrated his capacity for leadership when he chased after a stray sheep. All of these role models also fought when necessary. Abraham had to rescue his captive nephew. Jacob wrestled the angel and prepared for the possibility of war with Esau. Moses had to save the Israelite who was being beaten by the Egyptian taskmaster. We don’t shy away from a fight. We don’t hesitate to battle if need be in order to protect the innocent, but these are not the aspects of our heroes that we celebrate. The more compassionate side of our role models is inevitably our ideal.
Another important aspect of being a man is in how one treats women. When we talk to girls about what they wear, we always stress the fact that immodest clothing serves to objectify women. The onus isn’t completely on the girls, of course. If we would teach our daughters not to let others see them as objects, we must likewise teach our sons not to objectify women regardless of what they wear.
How many people have actually done this? Not many, I’d wager. In fact, we often do the opposite, albeit unconsciously, when we tacitly approve of promiscuous behaviors from boys while simultaneously disapproving of the same behaviors from girls.
The Midrash discusses the creation of woman from man. We are told that Eve was taken from Adam’s side so that they should be equals. Woman is man’s partner, not his subordinate and certainly not a thing. They are inherently different–and viva la difference!–but they are also inherently equal. Acting like a caveman towards girls actually makes a boy less of a real man.
God told the prophet Micah, “He has shown you, man, what is good. What does Hashem ask of you? To act justly, to love mercy and to behave with tzniyut in front of God” (Micah 6:8). Right there, God said what he wants of men – justice, mercy and tzniyut.
The mishna in Ethics of the Fathers tells us, “In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man” (2:5). This doesn’t mean to go around cracking skulls and taking names. That’s not a characteristic we value. If we would have our sons learn to be real men, we must teach them to reliable, honest and upright members of society, to protect the innocent when necessary and to respect women.
If we would teach our sons – and our daughters – about tzniyut, we must encourage them to internalize the characteristics for which modesty in dress is ultimately a mere façade.
(31) Joseph, June 15, 2014 2:40 PM
boys tend to dress in uniforms
Whether you watch the 'red carpet' for the Oscars or you visit a Litvish yeshivah, most males are wearing black suits and white shirts with black or dark ties. Few men wear mini-trousers, plunging necklines, chest hugging shirts, bright red suits etc. I'm told that women on the 'red carpet' at the Oscars or at Cannes dress in a way our grandmothers would have thought not kosher. Women have far greater freedom in how they dress and therefore their mothers may need to guide them in tzenius. Boys tend to wear 'uniforms' and thereby avoid the problem of what to wear.
(30) Ann Canada, June 14, 2014 9:15 PM
Thoughtfully Written
This was a thoughtfully written article, Rabbi Abramowitz, but I was surprised that it did not address the very obvious: that men indeed can dress provocatively and need to be aware of the effects such dress can have on women. Tight jeans, pants worn low, revealing underwear and "Way too much information" about a man's lower half, muscle shirts--or no shirts at all--to name a few examples. While these may not be seen at Shul, outside of "Shul time" men should take care to dress discretely. We women may not have the same thoughts about nakedness as do men, but our eyes all see the same.
Ray, July 13, 2014 6:53 PM
Amen lady. When I go to pool or wear summer clothes, I purposely wear shorts a sizable slightly bigger. Why? I don't want to be exposed. I also wear my shorts properly. I hate with a passion folks wearing pants, shorts hanging off their butts. I don't want to see "the crack of dawn" or a "moonshot". There are some men like myself who wants to be modest and a gentleman.
(29) Anonymous, June 13, 2014 2:28 PM
Side-stepping the issue
Seems to me you just avoided tackling the question head on. Yes, it takes courage to face the question and the larger issues, but you have a well-educated public here and many won't accept distraction and pablum for answers.
Let's get back to tzniut in dress. It appears that dress laws of tzniut excuse men from being boors by putting the entire weight of responsibility and blame onto women. How did that happen? Halacha is a man's world-- written and paskened by men. And what is the result today? In the frum community women are judged daily on the basis of how they dress and frum women in particular assess other women based on dress. Nasty business.
Rather than constantly stare and judge the secular world (where that obsession comes from is fodder for another article), consider how the frum community comes across to the secular Jewish world. To them it seems that observant men, even those immersed in Torah and Torah study, have their minds stuck on sex. And who is to blame? Their women, of course. Not attractive.
The laws of tzniut have validity; the frum world, by their (our) obsessive and compulsive behaviours, overbearing judgemental attitudes, and fear of facing and discussing issues openly (such as what about tzniut and men & issues raised above) belittle and degrade the validity of tzniut in dress.
(28) Anonymous, June 10, 2014 5:29 AM
Jewish Guys and Modesty
I noticed that the rock group, the Rolling Stones, performed in Israel and went to the Kotel. The drummer, Charlie Watts, is Jewish. All these years, he has been the only one of the group who has bypassed all the groupie, orgy-like, drug parties after the concerts. He was and is a family man. He always took his family with him and abstained from the other member's shameful ways and abstained. Charlie is Jewish. Always very quiet, humble and soft-spoken, he is the one who got the standing ovation more than anyone else in the band. He was exhilirated when he went to the Kotel and to Eretz Yisrael for the first time. Let's give a big round of applause to Charlie Watts, who always has been a nice Jewish boy and abstained since 1965, not following peer pressure or temptation. A very good soul. He started out as a jazz musician and stayed with the Stones, a rock band, after they started making money on their records and just continued with them, ignoring their mishugas, and kept his tzniskeit. May Hashem bless him and his descendants for his abstinence in the face of true evil. In 'dailymail.com' or 'dailymailonline' you can see the Stones at the Kotel. Mick is respectful, praying at the Kotel and Ron Wood looks absolutely stunned at the true kedushah there. I wonder why Keith decided not to go to the Kotel? Well, all in all, Charlie Watts is a nice Jewish boy, surrounded by tumah and kelipot and he abstained and wasn't tempted. A gute Neshamah.
(27) Anonymous, June 9, 2014 11:36 AM
Excellent
This is truly great! I will be sharing it with others and thank you so much for posting it!
(26) Anonymous, June 9, 2014 2:14 AM
men have it harder
jewish women have the extra mitzvoth of dressing with tzinut but I think men have it much harder-they have the extra mitzvoth of "guarding their eyes"-something very difficult to do given how the non-religious world dresses
Anonymous, June 10, 2014 3:51 AM
it's not just secular
Forget the non religious world -take a look at the religious world-especially -with wigs getting ever longer, skirts getting shorter and tighter. It's a problem that religious Jewish women strive to look like fashion models and not like Jewish women!
(25) Anonymous, June 9, 2014 1:08 AM
clothing aside..
clothing aside..... I live in NY City and travel on the subways. Tzniut is not only clothing. Sometimes I hear 2 Jewish young men speak and they don't keep it low and their conversation brings me to the point of cringing. Does everyone have to know every deal they made or how many cruises they've been to? No, it's not just clothing - it's keeping your business private and behaving as a gentleman not a boor. (the girls are also often thoughtless yakkers but the guys are oh so un-tzinut). Be aware of how you come across.
Silky, June 13, 2014 7:50 PM
Well Said
Thank you. Your comment are right on the mark.
(24) Anonymous, June 8, 2014 8:34 PM
Modest behavior indeed
There are inappropriate men in shul as well, the slang for them is "cad". If we are a community responsible for each other it behooves synagogue leadership to teach appropriate treatment of those we date. I specifically refer to the more liberal communities where people may have less guidance or restriction on this. At least these are the circles in which I daven. I became involved with one such "wolf in sheep's clothing" and had to change synagogues. I could not bear to see him act as if he didn't know me and flirt with other women after we agreed to stop seeing each other and he broke his agreement to not attend my shul and to remain at his own. Plus...he ingratiated himself into being one of the organizers for the social circle there, where we met, when he was just visiting the synagogue. How much more it hurts to be treated by a Jewish man this way, one who I attended services with and lit Shabbat candles. And...This after a bad relationship with a Catholic! And we are older, divorced people in our 50's & 60's. He said he was willing to have a real relationship with me. After developing towards physicality in the relationship, he disappeared. Playing with emotions, breaking a heart and then making someone so uncomfortable in their shul is not right. I can't tell someone where to pray. But, as we make socializing with an eye toward respectful partnership such a high priority, we must have teaching and support. And protection. Thank you for letting me unbear my burden as I am too embarrassed and hurt to tell the rabbi.
Dena, June 9, 2014 3:19 PM
Your story is very sad and I can feel your heartache. My advice to you and everyone else is: next time, save the
physicality for your wedding night.
Anonymous, June 13, 2014 3:14 PM
My point is more than that
I appreciate your comment, but saving sex after marriage does not mean that someone will be kind and fair to another, not that I don't respect that. However we are Jews across the spectrum in lifestyles here at Aish, and we can all learn from each other. I shared by experience because it is more about modesty & boundaries to those we belove & befriend, no matter our lifestyle.
(23) Lyone, June 8, 2014 7:13 PM
men on display
Actually, in our culture, men as sexual objects IS a thing. And the male body is highly sexuallized/sensualized--all you have to do is open a fashion magazine to see this.
My husband and I recently had a discussion about tsnius, and I mentioned the lack of parity regarding the "rules" in dress--how men are constantly taking off their shirts in public places, and even that "short-sleeves" is considered acceptable dress for many religious men, when this would be absolutely unacceptable for a woman. We even talked about this business of men going about in t-shirts, which are essentially underwear......and how that all got started inside hot factories, etc.
I think he realized that some common male behavior is really not up to the standard.
Even though tsnuis is not all about clothing, clothing is a place to start. . . . to help us each of us to aware of the effects we have on others, and of our own need for more spiritual practice.
Rivka, June 9, 2014 9:25 PM
modesty for men's clothing varies
I think that the question of what type of shirt is modest for men depends on the community you live in. A t-shirt is definitely NOT considered "underwear" in my community, supposing that it is not sleeveless. My daughters live in Baltimore & Lakewood, where it would be much less acceptable to wear any type of T-shirt. No shirt, or shorts, is prob not appropriate anywhere. Sandals again varies with location.
(22) Anonymous, June 8, 2014 3:37 PM
When and how was iy decided
If modesty is of concern, why, when and how did pants become a male dress? Many countries and groups of males are shown wearing a robe or shirt of some sort or a draped item of some nondescript nature. Scots even have kilts. Ghandi was draped in material. I have never seen pictures of any of the biblical men wearing or described as wearing pants,Where, when and how was it decided , and by whom, that pants is a male type of dress?
Pants certainly cover the legs and maintain modesty.
Thank you
Anonymous, June 10, 2014 3:58 AM
men wearing pants with short jacket is new
Jewish men traditionally wore long robes which then became a long coat and then became a bekasheh like the chasidim wear today. This is done for modesty reasons (as well as kabalistic).
(21) Empress Couture, June 5, 2012 4:04 PM
Modesty for Men - absolutely!!
Men should definitely be modest as the commandment is to be holy!! So excited about a new clothing line being launched that will feature many modest and tznius styles for frum women of all observances. Wether you are modern orthodox or orthodox you can find what you're looking for and be attractive without attracting!
(20) Rose, July 8, 2011 2:46 PM
As a woman I was pleased to see this article and the message how modesty isn't just a matter of skirt and shirts or which gender it is imposed upon. A man or woman who walks around strutting as if he or she owns the entire world is not acting in a manner of tzniut. Acting with modesty, courtesy, and politeness is the sign of what the Jewish goal is: to become a "mentsch". And the best thing is that anyone can be a "mentsch", it's not just for the guys. That said, the person who works honestly, avoids gossip, takes the time to thank people, tries to spread good cheer, and works on compassion is a mentsch.
(19) RABBI ZELLER, June 20, 2011 12:33 AM
I HAD THE Z'CHUT TO ATTEND NER ISRAEL WHERE A RABBI ISBE ZT"L POINTED OUT TO EVEN TALMIDAY CHACHOMIM NOT TO TAKE OFF YOUR SHIRT TO WASH YOUR CAR IN PUBLIC! SO HILCHOT TZIYUT APPLIES TO MEN AS WELL AS TO WOMEN.
(18) Chaviva Galatz, June 3, 2011 2:22 AM
Men's Edition of Tzniut Project
I think you'll find my series starting tomorrow interesting, then. www.kvetchingeditor.com
(17) Rabbi Dr Ed Goldstein, June 2, 2011 2:37 PM
boys and tzniut
In my neighborhood older boys wear white shirts and black pants while the girls are all colorful, if tznuot. Talk about double standards. Your point about objectifying women was more to the issue. Tzniyut and all that attends it (negi'ah, for example) is for those boys whose concept of respect for the opposite sex is seriously lacking
anonymous, June 3, 2011 5:20 PM
To Rabbi Dr Ed Goldstein
I am confused about you first statement. There is nothing wrong with women wearing color, as long as it is done appropiately. Tznius for women, in my opinion, does not entail wearing only black and white.
Anonymous, June 3, 2011 6:58 PM
TZNIUT FOR ALL
To say that one is more "refined" and "above" such laws that regulate how we project ourselves and how we control our base instincts is arrogance.
(16) C, June 1, 2011 9:00 AM
How often does one see an analogous article addressing the male audience? Don’t bother counting, I’ll do it for you: never never say never
(15) Dovid Kornreich, May 31, 2011 10:00 PM
Plenty of great points but not sure about this one
"We don’t hesitate to battle if need be in order to protect the innocent, but these are not the aspects of our heroes that we celebrate. The more compassionate side of our role models is inevitably our ideal." I believe that this is the calling of any Jewish judge and communal rabbi--standing up and fighting for the rights of the poor, the widow, the orphan and the stranger. Very often this means being forceful and brave to stare down those who would like to exploit the weak and the defenseless. We certainly celebrate this somewhat "macho" heroism in Judaism.
(14) annette, May 31, 2011 4:33 PM
Tznius for all
Women are the leaders of modesty. Men are required to learn from our example. Modesty is not just in the clothing we wear but also how we act & handle ourselves. How modest is it if you are acting inapproriately but your clothing is just so? We also have to remember that we are Royalty - we are the Children of the King of the Universe, which makes us Princes & Princesses - Bnei Malachim. For that reason alone we need to dress & act in a proper way at all times.
(13) Anonymous, May 31, 2011 1:24 PM
interesting but still sad
I fully understand your points and agree with all them. However, I still have a problem with the specific laws of tzniut (only in regards to clothing) for women. For example, a woman who is wearing a tanktop and a skirt on a hot summer day can still be tznius; or in regards to pants: if she isn't wearing leggings, that could be fine too. If the reason for these "laws" is to avoid attract men, then it seems somewhat unfair to me that women have to cover up in such a way. Just something I'm struggling with...
miriam, June 2, 2011 1:35 AM
tznius is a huge struggle for almost all women. There is a great book out there "outside, inside" by gila manolson. its a short, very easy read, and only explains the reasons for tznius, without telling you what you have to cover. basically, you learn how to be tznius on your level, wherever you are from or up to.
steph, June 3, 2011 1:34 AM
mrs. manolson's book is good but you should also read rabbi abromowitz's!
Anonymous, June 2, 2011 2:44 AM
I think you conflate "modesty" and "tsnius". As R' Abramowitz explained, tsnius encompasses a lot more than just modest dress. So while a woman in a tank top and skirt on a hot day may appear modestly dressed - at least in the context of the secular world - she is not a tzanua. You also write that the reason for these laws is to avoid attracting men. This is incorrect. Helping men to avoid "straying after their eyes" is just one small aspect of tsnius. The real reason women dress modestly as part of tsnius is the same reason why we cover up a sefer Torah and put it away in the aron when we are not reading from it: it is precious and holy, and shouldn't be on display for everyone to see.
Jason, June 3, 2011 5:06 AM
"With great power comes great responsibility"
Hi Anonymous, I am not sure whether you know how much the dress level of woman can effect a man. As a member of the male population I can clearly tell you that it affects us a lot (it affects us more than most will admit). But this is the way Hashem made it. I am pretty sure that if a woman sees a man in shorts vs long pants for example, that she would not be much more or less attracted to the person (I can’t tell you what a woman might think for sure but I think you will probably agree). But it is more than being attracted, seeing a woman in that type of dress, even a tank top, leads to improper thoughts that I am embarrassed to say are difficult to avoid. The thoughts are of course proper in the proper context but not in the context of a random person on the street. Women were given a ‘power’ over men, something called beauty/ attractiveness which we lack but like with anyone who has more of anything than others, they must use it in the proper way. For example, in Mitzraim after Pharoh decreed that all male children be thrown into the Nile, the men avoided relations with their wives but the women used their beauty to 'lure' their husbands to continue to do the Mitzvah of Peru Urevu – this was the proper time to use their attractiveness. And yes, the more skin, the more the thoughts come. You would not be with a random man on the street, well, should they feel the desire to be with you? Do you even want them to? I reiterate, as a member of the male population, it effects us much more than you think – Just keep this quote, (one of my favorites,) in mind, “with great power comes great responsibility.” Hope this clarifies and turns the “sad” to glad.
Anonymous, June 3, 2011 5:40 PM
to: interesting but still sad, submitted May 31
I agree that someone who does not keep the actual halachos of tznius can have a modest apperance. But please know Tznius is not just about not attracting men. It's about YOURSELF. Modesty is about self dignity. Someone can have self-respect and modesty while not keeping the rules, but the halachos which we are required to keep, keep us on the right track. Plus, we are a little desensitized- we are so often exposed to immodesty that we think nothing of it. But please remember that you have a beautiful, perfect, untouchable soul, and you want to dress in a pretty yet dignified way so that tzelem elokim can shine through. That is what tznius s about. It is not about concelaing. It's about revealing. Reveal you true self to thre world, "flaunt" your inner self! i know I want people to love me for who I am, and not my looks.Sometimes it's hard, especially on a sweaty summer day, but the more of a struggle it is for me, the world I'll get! Your soul is the part that you want everyone to love you for. Remember, you can still look attractive, but not attracting. I think tznius IS beautiful. Yes, it's a huge struggle, so I pray that you and I will grow and come to embrace these halachos, which are about women,which are about true beauty, which are about US.
(12) Michal, May 31, 2011 9:41 AM
Great article
In a wonderful way you explained Tzniyut for men as well as for women. I have never read something like that before, and therefore enjoyed it very much. By that I see that we brought our two sons up in the right way. Their father s"l was a role model by nature. Thanks for every word you wrote.
(11) R. Klempner, May 31, 2011 4:06 AM
Thanks so much for this wonderful article
It's so wonderful when you see men dressed in a way that is dignified. My son was horrified just yesterday when he saw a fellow in line behind him at the grocery store wearing a shirt showing the picture of a naked woman. My son is 8 1/2 years old and was very embarrassed. I wish it were only young, naive men who dressed in without regard to modesty or propriety. One day I picked my kid up at school. There was a dad there, dressed in slouching pants, underwear hanging out, with a t-shirt sporting the picture of a giant marijuana leaf. I thought to myself, "Does he really want his kid to look like this? Does his kid respect him? Does his wife?" A person who wants to be treated with dignity should treat themself with dignity by dressing in a way that befits a creation of the Almighty.
(10) sharona, May 31, 2011 4:03 AM
The mitzvos we Jews have help us to do what we need to do in this world, and also help us to be the holy people we should be. Our body is special and we protect that specialness with clothing. In dressing modestly, people can focus more on our inner beauty. of course sometimes people still act immature even around modest people. But at least we did our part, and others should do their's. some mitzvos men and women have are the same like keeping kosher. And some of them are different. But we are all important in serving Hashem
(9) David Tzohar, May 30, 2011 3:22 PM
equality of men and women
You wrote that woman was created from man so that they would be equal. Not true. Women are spiritually soperior to men since Man was created from earth and Woman was created from a being that was "tzelem elokim"
(8) Mike Shatz, May 30, 2011 2:39 PM
Not only clothing and related matters
Tznius should also include limits on showy displays of wealth and of surface piety. The latter has its own special rabbinic name--yuhara.
(7) Kevin Cullis, May 29, 2011 8:55 PM
There are three levels of manhood.
As I have come to realize, there are really three levels of manhood: 1. Being a male 2. Being a Man 3. Being a Gentleman Strive to be #3 And women can do the same 1. Female 2. Woman 3. Lady
(6) TMay, May 29, 2011 7:52 PM
and
And that is a reason I don't like pinatas because it teaches children to beat something that looks like an animal like a donkey with sticks until it spills its guts with candies and IMHO it teaches brutality. I would not pass laws against it but I ask people to make the connection, and not spread the custom.
(5) MESA, May 29, 2011 3:39 PM
"You never stand so tall as when you stoop to help a child." I don't know who said that, but I love it. And that's what it's all about- being a real man is about being a tzanua. Recognizing that character and dignity are what really count- that's real manhood.
(4) Rachel, May 29, 2011 3:38 PM
Double standards
1. Yes, I do tell my son not to treat women like sex objects -- regardless of what they are wearing. In larger US society, there's nothing immodest about women's elbows or hair. 2. You mention it's ok for women to "show their legs" in an office but not men. Yet the Orthodox standard is for women not wear trousers, either. If the issue is that women should not wear men's clothing, that obviously no longer applies. And if it's about modesty, I'd argue that men can be just as immodest in trousers as women, depending upon the cut of the garment. Meanwhile. I know many women (non-Jewish) who wear pantsutis so that they will appear more androgynous in professional settings. And I've been told by some well-meaning nosy-bodies that it's a shame I have "body issues" because of my tnius dress -- the assumption being that I lack self-confidence because I wear the Orthodox "uniform". Frankly, I think the general culture should realize that a lot of this obsession with exposed bodty parts is unhealthy (anorexia wasn't an issue 60 years ago when people exposed less) AND the Orthodox ought to lighten up about assumptions about others' relgious devotion based on clothing styles.
Anonymous, May 29, 2011 8:13 PM
Re: Double Standards
You are making very strong points, but I think you missed the main point of the article. The Rabbi was saying that Halachically, it is improper for a woman to walk around the office showing her legs. It is likewise improper for her to reveal any other inappropriate skin, like it is for men. He was giving a rationalization why women tend to receive all of the limelight in tznius issues. According to American cultural norms, women can walk around the office in short skirts while it is unprofessional for men to wear shorts. Because what is considred appropriate dress for women is so divergent from the Halachic perspective, more limelight was placed on them instead of on men. It is wonderful that you teach your son not to treat women like sex objects. If there were more parents like you out there, the world would be a much better place. The Rabbi was referring to the majority who don't stress this as much in their children's upbringing.
(3) Kezia Raffel Pride, May 29, 2011 12:35 PM
Kol hakavod!
As the mother of six boys, I thank you for this! Excellent article. Thank you for bringing us this important discussion,and especially as concerns tzniyut of speech and behavior. My Rebbe (the Hornosteipler Rebbe, shlita) taught me, by the way, that tzniyut in clothing applies equally to men and to women, and in the same way: from above the collarbone to below the knees and below the elbows. Simple, and equal.
(2) Anonymous, May 29, 2011 10:45 AM
A SNAPSHOT IN TIME
Thank you- thank you for this article! And may I remind young men to pull up your pants? Trust me, not "many" people want to see your underwear. And a belt would not hurt either.
(1) Jack, May 29, 2011 8:18 AM
Good but...
Good article with a new perspective. The problem is that with women there are certain parts of their body that are objectively not considered to be modest and they are "forced" to cover those parts. Whereas by men the lines (unless one bares all) are much more objective and there is basically no problem with short sleeves and shorts. Seems like a double standard no?
Tina L, May 29, 2011 12:01 PM
Read again what it says in the article
In tractate Shabbos (114a), clothes are referred to as the things that honor a person. It continues that it’s considered shameful for a scholar to wear stained or patched clothing, as such are beneath his station. That is why Jewish men who honor themselves and Hashem will not wear sleeveless shirts or shorts.
Susan, May 29, 2011 12:03 PM
To Jack
No, it's not a double standard. Logic dictates that since men and womens bodies are different, it makes total sense that the requirements for what needs to be covered is different too.