I feel very uncomfortable about the money issue and I am fearful that another kind of payment is expected. I would really like to get married but ... at this point I don't see it happening.

No, she is right. Guys today tend to treat women like guys. It is really a turn off. Pay for the date for crying out loud. Act like a man without prompting. Have a little class. It is polite to offer and it is even more polite to pick up the tab for your date.

I am older, single and have many friends with whom I will have coffee, dinner etc. My viewpoint have been that if I go out with a platonic friend we each pay our own bill, or halve it, same as when I have dinner with a female friend. But if I go on a date, I will allow the man to pay on the first date - after that we as a couple will decide how and who pays for what.

I am a guy and I think it's fine for the girl to pay half if she wants to. I actually like it sometimes to be honest. I consider myself to be a generous person, but I don't see why the man should be expected to pay all the time. Firstly dating is expensive. Secondly, today most women work and often on high salaries. So what's the big deal if you go dutch? I don't believe I have never insisted on paying because I am a gentleman, but I think the whole protocol thing is ridiculous. Frankly I've been on so many dates where the girl doesn't even acknowledge you paying or even give a proper thank you, that it just puts me off completely. In contrast my last girlfriend would secretly buy drinks for both of us on the way back from the bathroom, because she knew I would insist otherwise, and she genuinely refused my money with none of this false modesty nonsense. Now this is true derech eretz! Men don't like gold diggers and they don't like manipulation. My advice is be honest, if you are not interested in paying don't offer, if you are, then just pay in the form of a present and don't make a deal out if it. It can be emasculating for some people if the woman pays, but a present is a sign that you genuinely care. Another thing is I think it's crazy to judge a person on this criteria alone. Even if a girl (and it's happened alot!) doesn't say thank you when I pay, I try to judge favorably and say to myself maybe she is embarrassed about these things or this is how it's done in her culture. If I see the same pattern in other situations only then I start to make assumptions. In my opinion if you want to see if he has a good heart and is generous, see how he treats his mother.

Ladies, don't make an offer to pay or split the tab that you don't intend to or want to fulfill. It's insincere at best, and manipulation at worst. It's confusing to a man to try to read your mind as to your intentions. Men have traditionally paid for dates because they were expected to extend the invitation. This is social etiquette, but not related to dating: He or she who invites somebody else is expected to pay, because the invited party is considered the guest. Simple as that. If a party invites another and doesn't or can't pay for the activity, then it's a warning sign; either the host is clueless about etiquette or living beyond his/her means.

While I do the same thing - offer to contribute towards the bill on a date - and I also prefer for the guy to decline and act as the "provider," I cannot believe that his accepting your offer on a single occasion would be enough of a reason not to see him again if everything else went well. That is disgraceful. While a "test" of offering to pay your share does set the guy up to accept it, it does not set him up for "failure" unless YOU have decided that such an acceptance would, in fact, constitute "failure." I strongly disagree with Rosie and Sherry that there is something wrong with a girl who offers to pay. In today's economy and life, girls and women work as well as men; and men, like women, pay outrageous amounts of money for housing, insurance, student loans, etc. A "test" of seeing if the man enjoyed the date enough and is generous enough decline an offer to pay on the first date does not mean that the girl thinks she is not "worthy" of being paid for, but that she wants to man to know that she herself is not greedy or only there for the free ride. While the "gentlemanly" thing to do is still to pay for the date, accepting an offer to pay is not "greedy," and several comments noted that the women found out later that a man had been on a very limited budget. Moreover, the way that the offer is made - for ex. "Please let me pay" is different from "Can I help put anything towards it? - can express different feelings on the part of the woman that the man may not wish to offend. In sum, I am thoroughly disgusted with the writer's statement that an acceptance of her offer to pay is "greedy," as well as with Rosie and Sherry's opinion that the girl offering to pay shows anything wrong with how the girl feels about herself, or even the assumption that men actually want the woman to assume he is paying. Again, offering to pay only sets the man up for accepting it; this can only constitute "failure" if you contend it to be so, and most men appreciate an offer.

about the ballroom dancing!

If i took a girl out on the firs date and she offered to pay for her half I would first think she wasn't interested and since I would think that I would say hey why not save a couple of bucks she's not interested anyway...

Jeaniie doesn't need therapy, she just needs to understand dating protocol. I tell my dating coaching clients to think of the start of dating like ballroom dancing,.You can't have two leaders - you'll step on his toes. Let him lead and watch what he does. If you like the way he treats you and looks at life - great!. But you can't observe if you take action - like offering to pay, calling men, or asking them out. Think ballroom daincing for the first 4-8 dates and you'll eliminate self-sabotaging behaviors.

I would say read "the rules". That is the book that made such a splash in the secular world over 10 years ago. It was my experience that I had to sit back and allow myself to be treated. It was what I observed from my friends too. If you want him to be "romeo" you have to "act like Juliet" and if memory served, she stayed on the balcony (-:. If a few dates pass and you are uncomfortable about his shelling out money (and it is an expense) go for coffee or a snack instead. Go to a free event in the park or a walk by the boat basin (in New York anyway). You don't have to be high maintenance but if you offer to pay I think it makes the guy feel et down and somehow they just end up not treating you very well after that. The other writer put it best. If the guy likes the girl he wants to pay. After all, the nature of things (likely) is that at some point in the marriage when children are born, the woman will be dependent. If she is marrying a man who cannot or will not accept responsibility for that...well that's an article that Rosie and Sherry wrote about in the Jewish Press so I won't steal their thunder (-:.

Dear Rosie and Sherrie, (Sherrie, I think we have met). I think your columns are wonderful. So please know that my thoughts here are not the norm. I wanted to come to the defense of this young lady and reply to your response. I think your analysis that she is sabotaging the date is way too harsh as it is prematurly conclusive. I think many other things could be at play here. My gut when I heard this is here's a girl that's not a feminist at all but merely someone who has rachmanus on the guy and who wants to show that she does not take his chivalry for granted and appreciates his role while simultaneously wanting to date a gentleman. It seems to me that she could be encouraged to have both by trying to order less expensive dishes, offering to go out locally rather than traverse 2 toll bridges, etc for restaurant X, etc. But I think you guys are way, way off base here to say that she is sabotaging a date. On many dates, girls have offered to chip in. I never take it any other way than the girl is showing consideration for my maimon. That's it. And I always tell the girl thank you but it is my honor to pay. The result -- she feels like a lady and I feel like a guy. And chivalry lives on. You ladies do a fantastic job. Please keep up the important work!

I frankly believe that Rosie and Sherri are being much too sweet. Let me put this in more realistic terms. Women's roles in the modern world are frequently defined by the fiat of the woman. There is a small point and a real point to make. Small point: Most men are perfectly happy and even *relieved* to go dutch - it means that you are not looking at him for his wallet and that you actually might see him more as a person than as a property whose value might appreciate. However, most men do enjoy the chance to be romantic - if the date went well. So most of us default assume we are paying either way, but if we liked you we want to pay. But if you say you wish to pay - well, what is there to gain by pushing? And that brings the main point: How many other mixed messages do you send? How many other ways do you decide that you are just too precious to give him the most basic respect of honest communication? Most disturbing is that from your tone, you most likely blame all the men for your failed dates as well. Look in a mirror.

Congratulations Jeannie!! =)

Dear all, thanks to all of you indeed for your comments, even if some of them sound really sharp. I got a response to my letter from Rosie and Sherry a while ago. Just a week after that I met another guy and following the advice given did not pull out my wallet and let my date pay. Within a matter of weeks he proposed to me and it is all running smoothly now! Of course, not only because of his "sober" approach to this sensetive issue. He is just the right one I´d been waiting for so long! Just one thing- there was no advice to go to a therapist in the response I got to my private email-address. I really appreciate the work of Rosie and Sherry and say them here many thanks again!!!

While I still agree that the guy should pay for dates, at what point should a girl offer AND pay for a date? I think after 4 dates a girl should make every effort to pay for a date, to me that shows me that she cares about me and my wallet and that she is not just going out with me because she is getting a "free lunch". Am I correct in assuming this?

I don't knopw which I learn more from, the article or the comments...

Thank you for putting her in her place. I don't think its good manners to test a man under the guise of good tact. I think this day and age women expect too much out of men. Attention women: wake up and smell the roses! No man is perfect. If you get along with a guy, he has good midot, and youre going in a similar direction, give it a shot. For goodness sake stop trying to paint a rosy picture of your basheret

exactly on target. My husband was also on an EXTREMELY limited budget--I viewed him as a cheapskate at first when I saw he didn't refill the gas in the car he borrowed for our dates. He wasn't. He just was't going to spend money he didn't have. Any gentleman will pay his own way on a date, and my husband did pay for our dates. we didn't go to classy restaurants, he took me where he could afford to go.

The etiquette is NOT "the man always pays". It is the host, i.e. the person who extends the invitation, who assumes responsibility for the cost. If they woman invites the man, she pays. The custom in traditional dating is the man pursues and thus invites the woman, so that's why the man usually pays, not because he's a man, but rather, because he's invited the woman. The ignorance of basic etiquette is the cause of the misunderstanding.

You are way off on this one. The man is supposed to pay for the first date in 99% of the cases. It may be polite for the girl to offer (even though she doesn't have to), but a respectable gentleman WILL always refuse. I have seen this happen many many many times. He will also make sure the date he goes on is one he can actually afford to pay for both people. While setting up tests normally may not be a great idea, this particular one most men are aware of. A girl wants to know that the man in question can take on the responsibility of being a provider, and if he fails this very simple test, she should move on to the next guy.

Many years ago, when I was single, I also viewed who paid as a litmus test on a date. I also thought that whether or not a man treated me was a harbinger for things to come.... This was advice I received from everybody: my friends, my mother, books on relationships, etc. So when I went out with the man (who is now my husband!) the first time, I was shocked and horrified when he A. suggested we go to a cheap coffee shop instead of a nice restaurant, and B. expected to split the bill! Everything I'd been taught told me to run, not walk away. The problem was, I really, really liked him. So we went out again and again. After a few dates, I told him I'd really like to go somewhere nice, and we did. It was still important for me not to pay for dates, so I never offered. But as I got to know him better, I realized he was on a very limited budget. I made a point of paying for lots of non-date expenses: food for when we had a picnic, tickets when we saw a movie. Obviously, my story had a happy ending. I'd agree with people who say that being a cheapskate during the dating phase of a relationship can be a warning sign that a man might always be cheap and ungenerous. But in some cases it can mean simply that you and he are working with different scripts: you want old-fashioned manners, and he's thinking that in the 21st century, everyone should pay their own way. Dating is a time for determining whether or not you are compatible and whether or not your dating partner is a good person. As a long-time married wife, however, I'd advise anyone dating not to impose an arbitrary yardstick on their dates such as whether or not they pick up the check. This is simply not worth writing someone off over!

where do I start. Jeannie, I feel like you would have written to complain about the guy whether he accepted for you to pay or not. We keep hearing about woman wanting equal rights. Maybe the guy wanted to show you that by accepting your offer to pay, he believes and respects equal rights. I have a friend that I hang out with and go to dinner with once a in a while. we are NOT dating. Yet she ALWAYS expects me to pay for her and the few occasions where she has pulled out her purse is to pay for herself, never for the both of us. Its unbelievable but it seems like all women care about is a guy taking care of them and paying for them. What's the point of a relationship then?

What is even more frightening is when someone takes these unresolved issues into the marriage. A woman like this is very likely to continue "testing" her husband's love, sabotaging nice times in order to see if her husband "really loves her". A woman who will see "non-caring" in minor actions and who will have difficulty with the normal routine of daily life; every turn must be a "manifestation of his love" for her. Setting a date up for failure is one thing; setting up a husband up for failure much, much scarier.

First off, as a guy I always feel like its a turnoff. Its part of the courtship process, thats that. I agree with Kenny, that it does appear like a person is not interested when women do offer to pay. I always pay but its a turnoff.

More great advice from Rosie and Sherry. They do see the bigger picture in dating and relationships. I hope the writer follows up on their answers to her.

"When you offer to pay, you give him a message that you don't view the date the same way he does." Exactly. One message that may be taken is that you are not interested in him as a date and don't want him to treat you as a date (and don't want him to call for another date).