Dating Maze #359: Wild Past

Dear Melanie,
I would believe you wouldn't want your boyfriend know about your past from someone else. That was exactly what I have gone through at my last dating.
I was lucky that my boyfriend was just a real great man in my eyes and I had all the courage I need to tell him about my past. He accepted me the way I am.
We were just so good to each other. But it could be just my fate that he recently "departed" and left me alone.
G-d bless!!

Many years before I married my wonderful husband, I kept company with people I'd have nothing to do with today. Promiscuity was barely a concept, let alone something to be avoided. My Jewish soul suffered from ignorance of what was good or bad for me, and I had a breakdown. Years later I became a ba’alas t’shuvah, firmly observant, with mentors helping me face, deal with, and reconcile past behavior. They ushered me into a good, rich, truly Jewish life. My husband comes from a more innocent background, yet certainly knows that the secular world condones and even expects pre-marital relations. Does he know I have a history? Well, yes, as I was married at one point. Have I been specific about the rest of it? Not on your life. We have a ten-year-old marriage that is better than anything I'd have imagined possible; there would be no upside in revealing unsavory details. The results would be sadness on his part, and embarrassment on mine. Were he to ask outright (which he wouldn’t), I’d say that yes, there were men in my life – and that would be IT. The person he married is simply not that ill-informed girl of years ago. Don’t feel you have to spill your guts to your chosson or husband. See a therapist or psychologist for that, don’t burden your marriage with gory details, and go live your wholesome, happy life.

Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt"l in his famous Marriage Tape (CD?) no. 620, says one should NOT talk about past discretions when dating. Rather, he says, one should sell oneself and say the very good qualities you have or those in your family.
Good advice from a wise man!

I do not think Rosie and Sherry were correct as far as you do not have to tell whether you'd had past sexual experiences to your chosson. As far as i know a chosson has the right to know whether this is going to be the first relationship or not. Yes, one should not never go into details about her sexual encouters.
I would encourage you to speak to a reputable Halachis authority who can advise you when and how to reveal this issue. Hatzlochah!

I dealt with this exact problem. I was a bit of a wild child to say the least, and my husband was the complete opposite. That is okay! I was honest and forthcoming about it because while those things were in my past and he is my present/future, those actions affected who I became. Good or bad, I cannot hide them, for the mistakes or actions I made helped me grow to a point where I was mature enough to be married. Being more religious or not is a cop out. When we marry, we become one soul, all past mistakes are forgiven and we look to the future. Who someone used to be does not matter, its who they are now that is most important. My marriage is built on pure open trust. I would not have been able to share that with my husband if it wasn't. I am lucky to have such a wonderful relationship, but I told him when we first dated that I was only interested in full honesty for everything. Yes, sometimes it might hurt, but if you discuss what about the honesty hurts, then it no longer becomes a barrier. Only by not address issues does our past taint the relationship. If it something he cannot handle, then he does not understand the Kabbalat Panim and the journey you will be on.

I was reading through this advice column and was horrified by this articles assumptions.

Thank you for being a voice of difference.

Your sexual past has no bearing on your relationship? What are the authors of this article talking about? Of course gory details aren't necessary, but certainly what a person understands about their sexual being from that past is crucial. You're not going to stop being a 'wild child' just because you decided to be committed to G-d and monogamous. You want to be a wild child with your partner, no? So, let them know you're a wild child and want to explore that with them. That sounds like the healthiest to me! :D

Read Tess of the D' urbervilles ! Or watch the movie and you will be shouting at Tess to keep her 'past' to herself . But that that early 19 thC England . I am very uncomfortable about anyone going into marriage with any major secrets .i mean how would you like it if you were the one who was being kept in the dark ? But let's assume the guy you are dating knows you went to college and then became religious he must therefore know that your lifestyle included behaviour that you may now regrett . I do think you have a duty to make sure that he does understand this . If he doesn't press for details don't offer them ,he doesn't want to know and is happy to accept you for the person you are now . If he does press for the gory details I would refuse to give them for a ll the reasons given by Rosie and Sherry but the relationship may not last . But if your past is going to be a problem for this man it's better to find out now than after you marry

I think the past does matter if one partner is the jealous type or just simply wants to know. Like a previous comment, what was done exactley does matter and its not enough just to say that they have now changed. I dated a girl once, and whilst I had no problem knowing that she had previous relationship, it later transpired that she also had casual encounters and did drugs, that was simply beyond my limits and my standards and I would have felt very cheated had she not told me. I appreciated her honesty and moved on.

I believe that you should and need to tell him what happened. Marriage is not a place for hidden secrets. If a person cannot say everything about their past lives to his/her future life partner, is that marriage not already being built on deceit? I'm afraid that I would not like to be involved in that type of relationship. Regardless of what the truth is, I want to know that there are no hidden secrets between my spouse and myself. Lastly, if he really loves you for who you are, he will accept you AS you are. If he can't do that then it would be better for both of you not to get married to each other.

Some guys care about a woman's past, some don't. But for the one's who do, they have a right to know. There are definitely halachic (i.e. marrying a cohen), spiritual (i.e. p'gamim) and physical (i.e. possible disease) ramifications for having had previous intimate experience, and if someone wants to know to if their potential mate has a history, it is his/her right to know. That being said, it's probably better to ask a shadchan or rabbi who knows the boy/girl than to ask them yourself, it could be very untactful.

they are no halacich ramifications to marry a cohen unless a female was involveld in a forbidden relationship , as she was a single girl i dont thim this was the case and a pgam is not a spiritual thing , tshuva doesn help for it is nothing spiritual, and he has a right to know if they are medical issues in general and if she can confirm this he doesnt have to know the details of what could have caused problems and if he loves you he'll acept you AS you are , is not an argument because love grows much more after being married and know your only dating

if true love exist b/w you guys. then you will accept who you are and what you were before. Love is also about accepting.

I guess it really depends on what exactly was done in the past. One thing if a person was involved in several romantic relationships in the past and another if she (or he) did something really scandalous. I do not think that just saying "it doesn't reflect who I am any more" would be sufficient in the latter case. Getting such things behind you by full disclose is especially important in our digital age, when there is a non-zero probability that some photos or videos can emerge later in your life.

If you are sincere in your new life then trust that you are forgiven. To reveal these events is asking someone else to bear your burden and it will destroy you both.

@Melanie - You've already gone out with this guy for 2 months. If you ask me...do you feel this is the guy for you? If so, I say wait till the timing is right. Everything in life is timing. The time to date and marry as well. There is nothing deceitful per se about keeping IT to yourself. However, I dont see how spilling your guts will improve the relationship. Best to tell him before you get engaged, however, at this point, keep it to yourself until your gut tells you its time to discuss it.

No secrets, no details. He should respect that private things should remain private. Perhaps more important to him is your current attitude and how you will instill in your children your new values.

"Ein Mazlirim Lo Avonosav Harishonim" - It is a sin for someone to remind someone else of their past transgressions. It is obvious that a BT would have had more experiences than a FFB and you should NEVER discuss the matter. Unless you have a chronic STD or there are photos floating around etc... This is not being dishonest. It is about being relevant.

Maybe this question was already cleared up but if this young lady is dating a Cohen she has to let him know about her past. She may be forbidden to him.

You are required to be honest. If you have had sexual 'escapades', he has the right to know under our Law (as do you, I would argue) going into the relationship. He has the right to give you a 'get' if you lie then he later finds out. Why add scandal to scandal? Admit to your follies. That is the first step in finding forgiveness and peace. Then never do those things again. I would further suggest remaining single and celibate.

There's an old country song that says "If I can't be the first, then let me be the last." Marriage is about the future; while it's true that the past affects the future, that is only without t'shuva. Resh Lakish says that true t'shuva turns willful sins into mitzvot, so someone's past can actually be a springboard to a better future. Somewhere it is said that when a divorced or widowed man and a divorced or widowed woman marry, there are 4 people in the bed. Midrash Rabbah tells us that to inflame her husband, Mrs. Potiphar gave him all the (imagined) details of what Yosef did with her. So I think Rosie and Sherry are right on -- spare your partner the details, because those thoughts will likely intrude in the most inauspicious moments. Thinking about old flame A when you're with spouse B is dishonest, sinful, and according to our Sages, doesn't give any children so conceived a very good spiritual start.

i also dated (and married) a ffb, sheltered man. i asked my rav if i should tell him about my past. the answer i got was that i had no halachic obligation to, but may want to share a vague sense of it so we know where i came from - that mean = no names, numbers or details. i also decided to only go into the discussion if he brought it up. as a baal tschuva it was clear to him that i had a past. he did ask me about it and i freaked out inside. i answered in truthful but vague terms. he asked me about numbers and i answered that that info was of no relevance to him or our relationship. it was a rocky few days and then we got engaged and BH ......... so my advice is tell the truth but he definitely does not need the whole truth. (and it really could be harmful to your relationship and future). DO NOT give him any details AT ALL. Behatzlaha Raba and may you be blessed with a life of simcha and shalom!

Totally correct, i badgered my husband for #'s prior to our marriage, and once an awhile i remember and it gives me a bad feeling. I put that information far back in my head, and try not to recall it. It really has no effect, except makes me feel like i wasn't the only one....I could have done with out the information, even though i would have known he had a history. Details make it harder to forget. A marriage is work for the present and future.

Really? It won't affect the marriage? How can one's attitude toward loyalty and sobriety not affect a marriage? Maybe this person can change, maybe not. A potential spouse has the right to decide for himself whether or not a match is appropriate, based upon complete information. "Protecting" him from the truth is patronizing and sounds like a dodgy rationalization for lying by omission. How can the couple accept each other fully if the relationship starts out with deceit? What happens when the truth comes out? Yes, there is a risk that he will turn away if he finds out, but on the other hand, if he's ok with it and feels comfortable that the relationship will be exclusive, the marriage will be stronger because it's based on honesty and full disclosure. Better to risk breaking up now when little is at stake than later, when children might be involved. I also wonder how the advice would have differed if it were the man who had issues with promiscuity and drinking.

My husband had a wild past, 2 kids, 2 wives, 20 girlfriends --- and he confessed everything about his past to me when we met- we are happily married now 25 years - he is my truest soul mate- I always appreciate how honest he was from Day 1

i think you're deluding yourself if you think that living the life of a mindless pagan in one's most critical stages (aka youth) of development makes you better in the end. There's no such thing as "getting it out of your system"...One's lifestyle is a great "teacher" for better or for worse and changing isn't very common - unless selfish motives are involved. He has developed a toxic load of bad 'habits" (taught himself to be bad which does stay in the subconscious mind) which i pray doesn't come back to the surface in the form of a "mid-life" crisis. If he has behaved himself then G-d has "kissed" your relationship (THANK Him for it) and/or you're just plain lucky, however data has shown what one lives is what one most likely becomes...Which is why G-d demands us to LIVE torah conscious in the first place, to avoid having to 'make it up" to those you really love but can't really prove it in the future unless its over time. Tzekadah is priceless so we must do our best as early as possible. even if you don't feel like it. Youthful experiences builds men and women for better or for worse - - and like anything else...'practice" will make perfect...shalom leckha

About a million people can say they had a drink with me. And none of them are lying. I am very private but a straight shooter. I admit to heavy drinking in my teens and '20s. I don't go into detail about my sex life. That is between myself and G-d. Anyone who grills me gets the Readers Digest version. If they don't like it, tough luck. I am honest. But that does not mean I am obligated to tell people everything.

Many cultures place a great premium on a woman being a virgin at the time of marriage. Orthodox Judaism also expects this of men. There is a purity both bring to a marriage that's special and one can sometimes feel the electricity between them at the wedding. Secular American culture does not take that position, although for certain many do choose not to be "promiscuous.'It's a gross generalization but it seems to me on campus and with twentysomethings sexual activity for most occurs when there is some sense of "knowing" the other person and sharing something of themselves beyond just the physical. It's often not just another oppt'y to feel good,like having a meal. While parties where alchohol flows in excess, and one hooks up with strangers are a part of most campus life not everyone or even the majority indulge in that manner.I confess I'm not in the loop enough to comment with certainty. I agree with R&S that there is no need to share this info. He knows on some level you lived differently than you do now, and nobody is forcing him to date you. I think this may be an area covered when the sages advise that "a man should not speak too much with woman, even to their wife." It seems to me that advise is applicable in reverse as well.

We all want to share everything with that special some one, but just like a bad joke, it sounds better in your head. BELIEVE ME, I have dated girls that partied like I did,and I pressed them to open up about their past, and that was a bad mistake on my part. If your going to tell him things, make sure that you thought it out.

I agree that there is no need to talk about your past escapades, however it IS important for you to make sure that your former promiscuous behavior has not resulted in contracting a sexually transmitted disease (STDs) which could certainly impact your physical health, your current relationship, and even your fertility.

My first husband pressed me for details on my previous relationships and I believed honesty would be the best policy. I told everything, and two years later, we divorced. He never could accept my past, and it was a very big mistake to have provided details. I support R and S in their recommendation to acknowledge past experiences but not to provide details---the "vagueness" does not have to arouse suspicion, as it should be couched in terms of personal growth and change.

The Chofetz Chaim likened gossip to spreading the feathers of a pillow and trying to recapture them. My history is similar to the lady asking the question. At first I used to answer the questions in a straightforward manner which did indeed turn off at least one gentleman. Now at a much older and wiser age, I just say (only when asked) that there is much in my past I would not do again, including certain religious explorations. I talk about now and how long I have been religious. Exact numbers are irrelevant to now and how I've lived my life for the past 9 years.

"Don't kiss and tell." It's one thing to admit to past behavior that one would never choose now; it's another to violate the privacy of one's past partners. I also think it's unfortunate that the frum community is so unforgiving of people's pasts. I've heard many stories of young people who are having trouble finding a shidduch now because they were a bit "wild" in high school or college. I'm not suggesting that one should welcome everyone immediately with open arms, no questions asked. But when one sees a single person who has joined (or returned to) the community, is keeping mitzvot, behaving responsibly (whether it's working, learning, continuing a secular education, raising children, or whatever), then that person should be just as acceptable as a potential shidduch partner as an FFB who's never strayed.

Wow this really changed everything for me because when i was dating in the past i told guys names of previous boyfriends & they look at u differently & now i know what to say thanks to this article

Anything in the past is history. I agree fully with the R&S. Should you tell him, every time he meets an old acquaintance of yours, the first thing in his head will be "Is this one of them?" "How many times?" etc every single guy you meet he'll worry? Is he more attractive than me? How are looking at him Why are you smiling? Etc etc. and this will be the sheltered man the good boy. The unshelterd guy gets worse and the Jealous one will destroy the relationship at best.

The other side of the coin is that by staying vague, she starts to sound evasive. Personally, if that conversation came up, and the lady I was dating started answering the way that R&S suggested, I'd be very inclined to end the relationship there. I wouldn't end it because I MUST have details. I'd end it because being evasive does not inspire trust. At best, this is avoiding the question, at worst, it's lying by omission. There are other problems that this answer could cause, but, in short, I agree with Anonymous below. I'd have serious misgivings about a lady that couldn't answer a question honestly.

A marriage only last with pure honesty. The man or women (if they are worth you) should have no reserves to say -if G-d can forgive you, so can I.

If the lady admits that she has a past, how much detail will you ask her for? You really do not need to know more than that fact and if there are any medical consequences. She will not become evasive unless you press for details. If you do, the likelihood is that she will be better off without you.

Or the guy will be better off without her -if she suddenly decides after giving a ton of "wedding nights" to losers she doesn't want to think about (?), that NOW she selfishly wants the security and love of someone who will actually DESERVE the love/sex she wasted on people who never deserved it. if she's pressed about being a "sl*t" for jerks then she will need to show broken-ness and shame coupled with a ZEAL and PASSION to reassure the guy that he is what she ultimately wants. Not that she's "settling" or that he's her second (or third) choice. We/He doesn't know her mind and motivations. sometimes that is the price one must pay for being sinful and selfish.

If I were in the man's shoes, that conversation was brought up and I asked numbers etc and the lady refused to divulge that info; I couldn't help but wonder what else I should know and wasn't being told. That's always a very tricky topic and oftentimes both parties end up wishing it had never been brought up. I also believe that is something that should rank much higher on the list than money matters.