The Hidden Jews of Montana?

The name Schaub is Germanic. How would her name relate to Sephardic Jews, not Ashkenazi Jews?

My Grandfather Ted and Grandmother Sara homesteaded near Ismay Montana - sometime before 1920. My father Edwin and uncle Carl were born during the time they resided near Ismay. I am trying to find where they lived near Ismay.

Loved this article.

My Grandfather Theodore and his wife Sara homesteaded near Ismay and had 3 sons Edwin, Carl, and Marvin before leaving the region for Chicago. My grandfather had been a rabbi and the man his Jewish neighbors came to for butchering meat. Grandfather broke horses for riding - and my dad told the story of when they were at a rodeo at Soldier Field (Chicago) a cowpoke participating in a pre-rodeo parade recognized his father in the stands and came up and shook his hand. My dad had some of his boy friends from the neighborhood who were impressed by all this. My grandmother insisted on giving birth to her son Edwin in Sioux City, Iowa - where she was from - as there were no hospitals in or near Ismay at that time. It is about 600-700 miles from Ismay to Sioux City. My grandparents' home burned twice - Suspected were German neighbors. I don't know exactly how many years they were in Montana - but from Chicago, they moved to Dallas - and by 1932 they were living in Los Angeles - where my dad went to high school and college - and met my mother (also the child of Jewish Russian immigrants) at Roosevelt High School. I was born in 1942 in Los Angeles. Dad and his brothers served in WWII. Dad as a Pharmacist's Mate in the Navy stationed in Oakland - His brother Carl in the Army, and brother Marvin in the Army Air Corp.

My grandfather Ted,was a Russian Jewish immigrant who settled near Ismay, Montana. I believe he met the woman who became his wife in or near Sioux City, IA. She also was a Jewish Russian immigrant. Two sons were born, Edwin in 1920 and Carl in 1922.
Their home burned twice while they lived there. They left for Chicago. Later to Dallas, TX, then to Los Angeles by 1932.

My grandfather broke wild horses for others, farmed, while in Montana. He had some difficulties with a nearby German family. Grandfather was also a rabbi. I'm not sure exactly when he arrived in New York from Russia - but believe it was between 1895 and 1905. All eight of my great-grandparents were Jewish Russian immigrants. I'm trying to find out more about their lives- and what it was like in Montana most particularly. Grandpa Ted owned a Winchester rifle and colt revolver - and when they lived in Chicago, attended a rodeo at Soldier's Field. My dad vividly related to me a story of cowboys participating in the rodeo coming up into the grandstand and shaking hands with his father - as they knew him in Montana. My dad met my mother while attending Roosevelt High, Los Angeles. She also, of course, is descended from her mother and father - both Russian Jews. I was born in Los Angeles in 1942.

Best regards,

Mike Savin

Grandpa became a successful business man once he arrived in Los Angeles. He was an inventor, built a 2-story building with his own hands - which still stands today at the corner of 4th and Soto Streets in Los Angeles (as well as building the home they lived in - which also still stands today).

All my life I felt Jewish. Finally, while in my fourties, my uncle Bill shared with me that his uncle, my great uncle Ed had come to him before he died to share that we were Jewish. Now I understand why what my great uncle was telling me when he kept saying I took after the Fuller side of the family. He was also proud of his scottish heritage. My mom's side of the family (including Uncle Bill and Great Uncle Ed) are all from Missoula, Montana. I would love to hear from you. Thank you. Sofe

My dads parents are both from missoula and i think they too are jewish. I am in my 30s and I always had jewish friends and jewish women have always seemed to pick me out and there is many other reasons I suspect they were murranos. My dad has never said anything about this and I have not mentioned it, his dad was born in 1916 and I know his dads parents were from the netherlands.

Sarah, don't let Jacob discourage you. In the end of days, only G-d himself will decide who is Jewish and who is not. With all the pogroms and in recent times intermarriage, if many Jews did geonology tests, they would find they aren't technically Jewish but in their hearts they are. Follow your heart. If you are drawn to Judaism, which is a beautiful religion based on the most incredible pathway to peace, happiness and prosperity, The Torah, then continue study and you will decide what is good for you and your soul; not people like Jacob. Your story is beautiful. He should be ashamed. If you are Jewish, we are commanded to love our fellow Jews and all people of all faiths. He should watch his words. I've met many who were drawn to Judaism only to find later they were also Jewish. Recently, in Los Angeles, a mixed married couple donated a safer Torah to their Orthodox Shul. The husband, who converted and who was also drawn to Judaism, recently had DNA tests and found he too was Jewish through his maternal side. No one can define who you are but G-d. Find a good Aish or Chabad Rabbi and study. You don't have to become officially Jewish to follow the path of Judaism but if you want to make it official, follow the laws as they lay them out for you. All the best and my G-d bless you and your family. You have been treated unfairly throughout your life as a Jew and it unfortunate. You deserve respect and dignity as a human being..

Why should I be "ashamed"? I repeatedly indicated that I meant no disrespect and that coming closer to Hashem is a beautiful journey. I suggest you reread my messages. I am just pointing out some verifiable facts that make the narrative about an "unbroken matrilineal line” and “a long line of rabbis” extremely unlikely. Presumably, Sara hasn't followed up on the issue because she cannot provide any evidence to back up her claims and refute my evidence.

Hello All,
Thank you again for all of your comments and the discussion around this article. It has made me become more serious about establishing a paper trail that spans the centuries. I received a lead from a (Jewish) Schaub today. She let me know that a large branch was from Poland. (The current records are in Polish and neither of us know Polish).

So, I began looking for Schaubs in Poland and records in English that referenced this family. Then, I found a holocaust record.

There was a survivor, a Berta Schaub, who was Jewish. She was from Gdansk, Poland.

The data was taken from this source via Jewish Gen:

Register of Jewish Survivors. Vol. I: Lists of Jews Rescued in Different European Countries; Vol. II: List of Jews in Poland. Jerusalem: Jewish Agency for Palestine, Search Bureau for Missing Relatives, 1945.

Hopefully, I can find the connection in Poland.

But, seeing the holocaust survivor record made me want to intensify my search for this family and figure out what happened.

Whether it's right or wrong, I have taken the Holocaust personally (on a soul level) ever since I have been a teen. Seeing the name on that record caused a visceral reaction that's hard to explain.
I am going to look into the Polish branch of the Schaub family to see what I can find.

Thanks for reading,
Sarah

Hi Sarah,
The article states you found Sophie Schaub in the Ellis Island database, yet when I point out that those S. Schaubs were Swiss Christians, you don't clarify which one of those Schaubs your ancestor was. We are not using different sources, but you just seem to use the internet tidbits that fit into your "Spanish Jew" narrative (for which you have failed to provide any verifiable evidence so far) whilst ignoring any other Schaubs. The technical term would be confirmation bias, because if you look at this rationally, the evidence does not suggest a Jewish/ Spanish origin. You state e.g. that Sophie was Jewish, yet where is the evidence for that? Not being a member of Church does not point automatically towards a Jewish background. My neighbor is not a church member, yet that doesn't make him jewish: he's just an atheist. There is talk of "a long line of Rabbis", yet I have yet to find any reference to rabbis called Schaub; none of that is verifiable. (The historian J F Schaub wrote a book on Jews in Oran but that doesn't automatically mean he is Jewish himself). Similarly, you seem reluctant to acknowledge that the number of non-Jewish Schaubs far outweighs the jewish one. Look in the Yad Vashem database: I count less than 5! On familysearch.org alone, a simple search gives you 92502 Schaub entries. The majority of whom are not Jewish but have roots in Germany or Switzerland. I cannot understand how you then can say "this is the only mention I have in terms of Christianity and the Schaub family. " Quite frankly, that it does not make any sense.
Again, I mean no disrespect. Becoming to closer to Hashem is a beautiful journey. If you can clarify please which Sophie at Ellis Island was your ancestor (may be a link?), i'd be happy to help you in your research. that would be a good starting point for real research instead of selectively picking internet tidbits to fit a specific narrative you seem to have become fixated on. Thanks.

Whilst I understand your desire for more scientific rigor in the process of Sarah's genealogy, it is significant that Sophie refused to disclose her surname. Why would she do this if there were not some association that she wished to conceal? The most likely explanation is that she feared discrimination.
As for the lack of Schaubs in various databases, if Sarah's antecedents are anything like mine, they changed their names frequently and, if her people were in Poland, there were no Jewish surnames in Eastern Europe until the 17th century at the earliest. Certainly, Sephardic names date back much earlier, but the Polish connection is significant. Don't be too hasty to rebut Sarah's story. My own Jewishness was concealed from me for many years, but everyone else seemed to know, just as Sarah experienced.

Factually, how many people ask their granniesabout their surname? I never didas a kid; nothing unusual there. This unverifiable anecdote is being constructed as if something was "deliberately hidden". Yet there could be all sorts of other more simple explanations. The assumption that she must therefore be jewish is purely speculative. Instead of looking for a fact-based explanation, we are given unconnected tidbits from the internet that are constructed into a pre-conceived, rather spectacular narrative of heroic Spanish Jews that form an “unbroken matrilineal line” and "rather die by the sword than convert" Why could Sophie Schaub not just be one of the millions of immigrants who led completely ordinary lives? When confronted with verifiable facts (e.g. that the number of non-Jewish Schaubs by far outweighs the jewish one), that is ignored, and when the evidence for Spanish ancestry is looking increasingly flimsy, all of a sudden there is talk of Polish-Jewish ancestry.
In this article (presumably data provided by Sarah), we learn that Sophie Schaub arrived at age 20 via Ellis Island. On the Ellis Island database ( https://www.libertyellisfoundation.org ), there is only one 20 year old person of that age and name, and this woman was Swiss, and like all other Schaubs from Switzerland more likely than not Christian. So why ignore this fact in favor of an extravagant story? Unless Sarah is willing to identify which of those Sophies arriving at Ellis Island was her ancestor, there is little sense of gathering bits and pieces (based on the similarity of names) and some unverifiable anecdotes to construct some extravagant story. That would be the starting point for any further research. As I have said before: no disrespect. I would love to help her research. Becoming closer to Hashem is a great journey. This does not mean, however, that we should ignore the facts. WIth the information given thus far, I do not see how Sophie Schaub was jewish.

I find your search very interesting. I come from a long line of Danish descent and have tried to make a connection. Your reference to a "Jewish" nose caught my attention...I've always been told I have a "roman" nose! I know that might well be "Jewish" ! Anyhow, I've enjoyed the report of your journey and wish you the best of everything.

It is shocking to many people that there could be jews in the world who don't know their ancestry. The story you tell about your slow realization and discovery is so similar to my own. I am also from MT and recently found out my great grandmother was not just "Russian." She was a jew from the Russian empire (bessarabia region). They spoke yiddish when they moved to America in 1907. Yet, I did not know I was jewish until my husband pointed out my uncanny resemblance and mannerisms to the jewish people (he lived in Israel for 4 years). A DNA test and burial records ect... confirm, that I am in fact an Ashkenazi Jew. Despite what has apparently been known by members of my own family for years, NO ONE TOLD ME. So yes, the experience that Sarah is describing is absolutely possible, if not completely plausible. Many of the families that left Poland were escaping horrific pogroms and anti-semitism. They often kept their religion and race private, but refused to convert. So Sarah, I am in the same boat! You should be proud of your strong sense of self, and refusal to conform. If everything about you seems Jewish.... it may be because.... you are Jewish. It doesn't matter if people call your interest in proving your roots a "fixation" or "Spanish Jew Narrative." It is about finding the truth about who you are, your identity. It is a strange feeling, to feel like an outsider among those who you are "supposed" to belong your entire life. I have experienced it, and finally I felt at home among a minority of Jews. No one can understand that unless they have experienced it themselves. My Rabbi sent me this article, because he thought my story was so strange, until he read this story!

Thank you, Starr, for such wise and gentle words to Sarah. You have spoken for many of us, here. WE understand. The soul knows to Whom it belongs--history cannot rewrite or wipe that away. B'H

It's interesting you mentioned the link with Poland. I had a massage client who paid me to work on his Polish mother where she lived, in a nursing home. Upon meeting her, she gave me a kiss on the check and said, "You are Polish". I replied that I didn't know. She was positive that I was Polish! I replied, "Who knows, it could be." I let her know I was Jewish (per my great uncle). She replied. "That's okay."

would anyone be able to suggest a reliable organization for DNA testing (if Aish does not mind) ?
It would help psychologically in continuing with the genealogy search. I've been blocked by relatives and it's been difficult to find the paper trail.

Try Family Tree DNA and 23andme are good. Just be sure you know which family line you want to test. Then call the DNA company and tell them which line you want tested. They can recommend the type of test that could provide the best answers.

I am Jewish and have met Jews from all over the USA and the world. I love to hear about Jews from places not known for large Jewish communities. I am descendant of one of those Jews. My maternal grandmother was an Irish Jew. No joke. Ireland is known as a Catholic country, but has a very small Jewish population. The city of Dublin has elected two Jewish mayors. I read that Ireland has historically been tolerant of Jews. That speaks very well of the people of that country.

Hello Jef,
I had always assumed there were no Jews in Ireland. How interesting!! Are there any stories about your Irish grandmother and how she got to America? That sounds like it would be a very cool story.

Sadly, my Irish Jewish grandmother passed away when my mother was very young.

Touching story.Mother from Montana. Always loved Jews since WWII. Tokdtold my mother Jewish my

Hi Sarah,
With all due respect, but I can honestly not see how you can state that "aside from this one, who is a Jew, this is the only mention I have in terms of Christianity and the Schaub family." Check familysearch.org (huge mormon database); hundreds of christian Schaubs in Germany and Switzerland. (Not to speak of Julius Schaub, adjutant to H****er (yimakh shemo) who has his own wiki entry). In the Ellis Island database, most Schaubs also seem to be Christian (originary from Switzerland or Germany).
Also one needs to be careful with assuming that two people having a same surname is indicative of them being related. E.g. not everyone with the name Smith is related. In other words, there is not ONE Smith family. and it is likely that there is not just ONE Schaub family. (the majority originates from Germany and Switzerland though).
It would be very helpful if you could clarify which of the 4 Sophie Schaubs from the Ellis Island database (according to this article you found her there) is yours ancestor. (None of those was Jewish or Spanish, but were christian and Swiss).
I looked through the French phonebook. Most Schaubs there come from Lorraine/Alsace (this territory used to be German). But again none at a single one of them had an even remotely Jewish name. Instead a lot Marie-Christine, and Jean-Francois.
I also looked at geneanet.org, a huge database with much French data, not a single Jewish Schaub. (see for example this tree http://gw.geneanet.org/mkstahl?lang=de&v=SCHAUB&m=N ).
Based on my research so far and the details you provide, i think it's unlikely that Sophie Schaub was Jewish. If you still have verifiable information that could provide us with a clue about her Jewish background, I'd be happy to help out with further research. A good start would be clearing up which of the 4 Sophie Schaub was your ancestor that arrived in Ellis Island. Thank you.

Hello Anonymous,
Thanks for your input and it looks like we are using different sources. I will say again that I am tracing two different ways. The first way I am getting information is from genetic relatives on Sophie's line who are all Jewish. (Matrilineal). I am following those leads. I am also in contact with Schaubs (who are Jewish) and who always have been Jewish. We know that Sophie was NOT a Christian and that was always a curiosity to the family since they lived in a Christian area. She refused to practice Christianity. Sophie kept everything about her past hidden in terms of the names of all relatives, locations, why she left Europe. But the way that she lived also made a statement. We wondered why she (and her children and children's children) utterly refused Christianity. In the past, I always assumed it was a German name, because of the way it looked. Anyhow, I am following lines based on DNA first and foremost because of the point you brought up-- people can have the same name and not be related. My matrilineal line came up as Jewish and that includes Sophie. Sophie did not practice Christianity. The modern day Schaub relatives I have communicated with are Jewish. I just found out today from a Schaub family members that there is a missing link in Poland in the mid 1800's (in Polish). There might be some modern day Christian Schaubs but my research keeps turning up more Jews. I just found a book written by Jean Francois Schaub about the Spanish Jews of Oran. I would not have spoken with Sara Rigler about this story if I didn't have DNA data or Jewish relatives I am in contact with. Also, please consider that I am NOT telling this story to gain entrance into Israel, to appease a husband, or anything else. I told this story because I was surprised to find the DNA evidence after making assumptions there were no Jews in our family. It was also remarkable because many thought I was Jewish. Please realize I mean no disrespect either. Thank you.

Long live the pintale yid. Victory of the idea of who we are over time and torture.

Thanks so much for the detailed testing information. My son could be tested. I asked a Singer relative if there were any Jewish lines possible and he said no. But, I will keep searching. Interestingly the great-great grandfather's parents are not found. I will need to go to the county records and see if I can find a birth or death certificate for him.

Hello Julie,
If you feel a kinship there is probably Jewish heritage. One of my genealogist friends (who is not Jewish) says that when records are missing or stories are hidden, she usually finds out the folks are Jewish. She does a lot of research for people and has found that to be the case. But you need to trace the line that you think is Jewish an get a DNA test that also traces that line. You could also look at family habits for clues. I did not realize until after I got married that my mom's side cooks a lot of traditional Ashkenazi food (even though the family came through Spain). Latkes and honey cake were staples but we also did not eat pork. I have always had a personal aversion to pork products. When I lived in France, pork was eaten frequently. I would always have to be 'rude' when I was a guest in the home because I could not stomach pork pate or anything else made with pig meat. I always felt so bad refusing it, but there was something in me that just could not eat it and I would apologize to hosts over and over again for not eating pork. Now I know why I was born with an aversion to pork products. Julie, don't get discouraged. If you feel something is there, your soul is telling you something. I just started working with an artist who felt so strongly about Judaism that she pursued converting just after college. She feels it is in her heritage and other Jews who have met her feel it as well. I believe she is Jewish too.

Sarah, it is great that you accepted the religion of your ancestors.
I hope you continue your growth to find the debts and beauty of Judaism. You may want to read another great article on Aish.com also by Sara Yoheved Rigler. The name of the article is" Secret Life of Gershon Burd" You may find some inspiration there .
May Hashem give you strength in your continues growth.

Hello Anonymous,
Thank you for your kind words and also for the article referral. I will read that tonight.

Has anyone read the book "Daniel Deronda" by George Eliot? Surprisingly, I had never heard of the book, but I watched the mini series about a year after my DNA test.

Daniel was a gentleman who never felt quite at home as an English aristocrat. He had a WASP English girl trying to seduce him. But, right before that happened, there was a divine intervention of sorts since he got off track by saving a girl trying to drown herself in the river. When he pulled her out, he found out she was a young Jewish teen who had come to England in search of her family. As he helped her try to find her family, he would often frequent the Jewish quarter of London, trying to find her relatives. Every time he went there, people (Jews) mistook him as a Jew and they would bless him and give him religious texts even though he never asked for them. She finally found the girl's family and met her brother, who was dying. He became close friends with the Jewish woman and with the Jews in her family. Finally, Daniel's father (an English aristocrat), said he would be sending him on a trip to Venice. At that point, the English aristocrat told Daniel he was not his father and he felt he needed to send Daniel to meet this mother who was dying. It turned out his mother was a Jewish countess and his father was also Jewish. When he met his mother, she explained that she had begged the English aristocrat to raise him as an Englishman and to hide his identity from him. She did not want him to face discrimination. When he returned to London, he married the Jewish girl and the series ended with them emigrating to Palestine. After I saw that mini series, I felt just like Daniel (the main character) who had been raised to believe he was English and then found out he was Jewish. All of the Jews around him spotted it even when he had not. Very interesting mini series.

Am not Jewish, but i love the Jews no matter where i came from,i will always pray for them, the Bible stated that we should always pray and bless them

That's a very beautiful sentiment, Annette. Thank you for praying for Jews and for blessing Jews. May G-d bless you too :-)

Sarah,
How wonderful that you did the research. So much in your maternal past seemed to lead you to find answers. I do believe that the Jewish soul does guide us to the right spot.
I have a friend who saw things in her family & her own feelings that made her believe her family had been Jewish at one point.. She was brought up Chrisitian, & her family denied they were Jewish. She did her research & found out that back to her great, great grandmother, I believe, that she was Jewish. I don't know if she has done the DNA testing yet, but she has been on Ancestry,com.
Finally, she underwent conversion to Judaism. Although her husband isn't Jewish, & they were married long before this, he has supported her in her conversion to Judaism.
Her family, on the other hand, has been denying all along there there is any Jewish blood in their family. Therefore, sadly, due to the animosity from her family that she dare say they are Jewish, she has parted ways with her family.

I will forward your story to her to read. It will most likely inspire her to get the DNA testing done and support her decision.

Ironically, when I would tell people that I am Jewish, they would say that I "don't look Jewish". I had dirty blond hair growing up (now it is "salt & pepper") and have green eyes inherited from my dad. My dad was blond as a boy, and my son, an Israeli, was so blond when he was 3yo that people asked if he was from Sweden. Now, his hair is darker.

I agree that Sara Yoheved Rigler is a wonderful writer especially of biographies. I am sure it was hard for both of you to condense your story. I am glad that you are setting a great example for your sons, too. G-d bless you.

Hello Diane,

It sounds like your friend needs to stick to what feels right for her. My family has not been adamant about denying it. In fact, after they found out, they all felt it made sense. They must have known on a subconscious level.

Still, if someone was raised in strict Christianity (I was not) there is this fear that if they leave Christianity they are going to hell. The fear is so strong that some will not even entertain the possibility of being Jewish. So, even if her family was Jewish, if they converted to Christianity and if it is a particularly strict view, their descendants are going to be in a type of mental bondage that will not allow them to observe Judaism. Many Christians believe that only they are going to Heaven because they believe only those who accept Jesus go to Heaven. This may not be your friend's family, but it is an attitude I have observed in many Christians. It sounds like she was able to break through it though.

As for blond Jews, this describes my husbands family. My father in law has blond hair and green eyes, as does my brother-in-law. Our youngest son, a blond with blue eyes, takes after them and also my dad.

Which company did you use? I want to do this testing also. Thanks!

There are plenty of Jews in Montana. Sportscaster Brent Musburger was raised there. And there is .... Okay, there are not many Jews in Montana. That is why I would not move someplace like that. I don't need to live in a town with a huge Jewish population, but I don't want to be the only one. It cracks me up when people move to large square states then wonder why they or their children can not find Jewish friends and/or dates. Duh.

Sarah - If it is so, that you are Jewish - rejoice! You have discovered that you come from royalty, with lineage that would put the royal house of England to shame.

Hello Raphael,
Thank you very much. I am still researching to figure out if it's an unbroken matrilineal line. Even though DNA is not recognized officially. I do find it compelling that my genetic relatives on my matrilineal line are all Jews. I have never asked specifically what it takes to be recognized as a Jew according to halachic laws. The Rabbi I met with a few years ago was comfortable admitting me to his congregation without conversion. I am not trying to gain Israeli citizenship or anything of that nature, but I am still interested in getting the paperwork together to see if I qualify under halachic law. I would like for our sons to marry Jews and so I want to make sure they are considered Jewish (since it is determined by the mother). It's interesting because I have been doing study on Jewish religious beliefs after I found out the DNA. The interesting part is that I am finding that I long ago as a child came to the very same conclusions (spiritually speaking) that Judaism teaches. So when I read article on Aish or other websites, it's like I am just affirming what I already naturally believed. This includes the belief in reincarnation as defined by Judaism specifically. From my earliest memories I have believed in reincarnation. My mom's sister and brother started studying Judaism on their own years ago. So they weren't surprised when I told them about the DNA test. Above all else, I don't mean my story about identity to be offensive to anyone. I have met several people that have told me about how they found out about a Jewish family member much later in life. I believe that issues of Jewish identity are coming up for a reason. The spark in people is awakening even if the Jewish heritage was hidden generations ago.

Sarah

You are correct; many people from all ovet the world are discovering their Jewish roots. Shavei Israel is an organization that works with them.
I wish you great success (hatzlacha) on your journey. No matter where it ends, here is a suggestion for a reliable guidebook: The Garden of Emuna, by Rabbi Shalom Arush. It tells the secret of the strength and eternity of the Jewish people: our relationship to Hashem, and how to connect to Him.

Trivia question: Where was the first Jewish synagogue to be built in the U.S. between St. Paul, Minnesota, and San Francisco? Answer: Helena, Montana. There are today an estimated 1,000 Jews in the state, not a lot, but never estimate the potential impact from afar. The following is from Wikipedia, attributed to The New York Times:

"In 2008, local interest in Judaism was revived when the city of Helena bought a surplus bomb-sniffing dog for the price of a plane ticket from the Israel Defense Forces, who had gotten the puppy from an animal shelter in The Netherlands, but upon arrival, the Helena police department discovered the dog only responded to Hebrew commands and, though given a printed vocabulary list of commands, the officer in charge of the dog could not get "Miky" the German Shepherd to respond.[8] When [Chabad] Rabbi [Chaim] Bruk came to the state capitol for a Hanukkah ceremony, the officer asked him some questions. Bruk taught the officer how to correctly pronounce Hebrew and then Miky began to respond."

My dad was born in Helena and lived his early life there. My dad has always used a lot of Yiddish words and has a large knowledge of the Jewish culture. That would make sense because surely he would've picked some of that up in Helena. I have always wondered why he knows some many Yiddish words and uses them in conversation.

I loved this article..this story...much like my own. My grandparents, escaping horrors in Europe arrived here, frightened and not trusting of anyone. Little did I know.....and what's interesting..I worked for Intel Israel...gave my children Hebrew names..dated Jewish men! You just can't fight DNA!!

Could Sarah please give the name of the DNA internet site that she used. Some are not reliable. Thank you.

I am not Jewish but I have a deep respect for Jewish people. I am a friend. On my wife's side her family goes back to Galacia, Austria. They did not talk of religion and said little about who they were. Flo, has been asked if she was Jewish. Who knows?

Schaub is a Germanic Ashkenazi name, it's disturbing that there was so much overt anti-Semitism throughout her life in today's America, yet her strong call to Judaism is compelling evidence that somewhere back there there is a Jewish soul struggling to return so that makes this a wonderful example of the Indestructibility of the true Jewish soul, but Sarah please convert -you must!!

Hello Anonymous,
Thank you for the information. I will either be formally converting or attending adult classes on Judaism depending on what I find. I am hoping that my husband will join in the adult classes.

Would be interested in getting DNA tested.
Who can do DNA testing for WOMEN ?
I thought that we needed a male to test. I am my father's only child--he survived the Shoa but did not share much about his family.
Would like to know more and meet some relatives.
I have so few relatives.
Thank you

There is family tree DNA, 23andme, And I believe National Geographic has one now as well. You need to look at all of the tests and see which one is going to test what line. If you're a woman, you can only get tested on your matrilineal line. You need a male family member to get both sides. Be sure to sign the waiver that allows you to get connected to other family members. You might also want to join online genealogy groups because they might have some more advice for you and it's a good way to make new friends. I bless you in your journey.

The late Rabbi Harviey Fields was descended from Eastern European Jews who were brought to Montana to be farmers. they didn't stay long because they joined the gold rush to the Yukon.
Some Of the farmers did stay. A relative of mine who was lucky enough to get out of Europe in early 1939, married a Jewish soldier whom she met in New York. His family were sheep ranchers in Montana. Her first visit to the ranch was also her last.

Sophie and her husband were also farmers in Montana. Anna carried on the farming tradition. Land was dirt cheap at the time and one could get a lot of it for very little. My grandma Lucy didn't starve during the depression because of the farm they had. There was very little food, only enough to get by, but they were fed when so many others had to leave their land.

Many names that were Jewish were changed....to protect Jews from antisemitism! My own family. Had changed their name so many times it was almost hard GI drive it/was Jewish, except the root of the/name never changed....schnaub could be snob...pron
Bagley f an arstcratic name , if you can find the meaning of that name, it may help. But generally the root if the bane stays the/same...like cup bearer , became kozman-cosman..m kausmann..servant of.... the/cup! Koz was the root...meaninf cup. Many Germans went to the isles of English shore...Scotland, Ireland, england ....a

Hello All, hope my first two comments went through-- the internet service provider has had issues today. Just in case, will summarize a bit:Julie, try 23andme or family tree DNA. I tested my matrilineal line (this includes Sophie) and that DNA was placed in cohort close to 100 Sephardic Jews. But, that is NOT what I expected to find. I located a handwritten scanned record of the Schaub name on a Spanish ledger of all Jews in a town in the 1400's (on Jewish Gen). Also, wanted to add something about my marriage and I think this is a lesson to those born Jewish. Please do not take my comments as judgmental-- it is NOT my intention. My husband came from Russia when he was 7 and he did not set foot in a synagogue until after I started to ask if we could go. (This was after the DNA test and also because I wanted our children to know G-d and to have a spiritual upbringing). Prior to getting married, I had asked him if I needed to convert. He said "no" because he came from a non-observant family. He said that the issue was with my race (not Jewish) and converting would not make me racially Jewish. He said this is what mattered to his family (the race) since they had no connection (and his family wanted no connection) to the religion. The irony is that, my husband was completely secular and I am the one bringing him back to Judaism. I grew up studying the Tanakh (because neither my mom nor I believed in the trinity and we felt Jesus was NOT G-od). I have always felt close to G-d from the time I can remember. I love G-d very much, pray daily, and always have. I continue to research my heritage to see if I qualify as a Jew according to halachic laws. But, in the meantime, I have become the spiritual 'leader' in the home and am bringing my husband and children to the synagogue. It is very important to me that my husband and my children develop a relationship with G-d. And, it may seem hypocritical, but I want my sons grow up to marry nice, Jewish girls who love G-d.

Your situation resonates with me. The history of the Hebrews is full of those like Kalob and Ruth who who joined themselves to HaShem and made a difference in the nation. But they must be ignored by those who demand "racial purity". By rabbinic standard, the descendents of Joseph are not qualified to be considered part of Israel. Is demonstrable genealogy as important as where the heart is? It truly is sad that anyone would be shunned by any Jew because of who their great - great grandparent may or may not be. May your family be united. Shalom!

Hi Sarah. What an amazing journey. I just wanted to add that we are close with an Iranian Jewish family by the name of Shoub. I don't know if they were originally from Spain or if the name started out as Shoub. But it does sound very similar. Hatzlacha on the rest of your journey.

Hello Everyone,
First of all, I would like to thank Sara Rigler who wrote this story. She is a wonderful writer and an inspirational person. I would also like to thank Sara's editor at aish.com who clarified and condensed the story. I read your website often and it is one of the main sources of my Jewish learning. Thank you to all of the readers who are contributing to this discussion.

I knew this story would be controversial and so a part of me was a little hesitant to have it run. First, I wanted to answer a couple of comments:
1) Schaub absolutely sounds like a German name. It's one of the reasons no one ever questioned it more thoroughly. I was surprised when I found a scanned (written) record of the name Schaub. It was from the late 1400's in Spain. It was a handwritten ledger of all of the Jews in the town.

2) My story is condensed for the purposes of brevity, so, there is a lot of data that was not included. I have a relative of the same last name (Shaub) here in my city. His grandfather was apparently related to my great grandmother. His grandfather was a Sephardic, Orthodox Jew who settled in NYC. His grandfather also cut ties with Europe and gave no family names - it's a mystery for him too. The family is still mostly Orthodox.

3) On the dating website, I never listed myself as a Jew. I changed my search criteria and instead of omitting Jewish men, I included them in my search criteria.

4) There are no Germans in my family (to our knowledge) on either side.

5) You are right that I could look at home in many Mediterranean countries. But, after my dad's DNA test, his paper genealogy was backed up by the fact that they are all Scots, some of whom came from Scandinavia long ago. The strange thing is, I am the only one in my extended family who does not have either lighter hair and blue or green eyes. It has been the on-going joke that I look like some great great grandparent that no one has ever seen.

Hi Sarah,
Thank you for providing details.
1) Could you please provide a link to the handwritten ledger. Since I am rather skeptical of a lot of Jew Gen data, I would be very interested to see the surname Schaub in a 15th century Spanish document.
2) On the Ellis Island database, I spot 4 people called Sophie Schaub. One from Sissach (switzerland); clearly a christian family in this remote mountain town. One from Frankendorf; most likely a misspelling of Frenkendorf (near Sissach), as I cannot find anyone name Schaub in Frankendorf (the name of two towns in Germany); again a christian family. A third Sophie is from the US, but only arrives in 1926, so chronologically not really likely to be your ancestor. Then there is one which the Ellis Island database records as arriving in 1895 on the ship "La Normandie"; she is also from Switzerland. (http://www.germanimmigrants1890s.com/index.php?id=1363606). Sorry to disappoint you, I basically I see nothing indicating a Spanish or Jewish connection. Or am I missing something? I'd be happy to help you with your search as I have been doing family research for more than 25 years.

Let me be very clear: I do not mean this as a personal attack, just interested in historical facts. I think it's great that you explore your connection to Hashem. Good luck to you and your family on this spiritual journey.

Hello Jacob,
Yes when I get some time, I will find a link to the ledger and I am happy to send it to you. Since everything is online these days, I don't print anything out, taking it for granted that it will always be there. Still, I will try to find some links today and send them back to you.

I am in contact with another family member in Paris. A branch and a generation of the Shaub family converted to Catholicism under duress (still marrying Jews) and when they relocated they made their Jewish identity known again amongst family members. Today they are outwardly practicing Jews again. I have no doubt that there are Schaubs listed as Christians, but aside from this one, who is a Jew, this is the only mention I have in terms of Christianity and the Schaub family.

As I said in one of my comments, there is a gentleman in my city with the same last name and he has confirmed that they have always been Orthodox Jews and continue to be so to this day. As I said before, I'm trying to determine my halachic status and continue to research. There's a small chance that I might not be Jewish in terms of halachic laws. If this is the case, I will do whatever is necessary to ensure my sons are considered Jewish etc.

Until then, wish me luck in my research. I have certainly meant no harm by telling this story. It's another lesson that there is always more to a life than surface labels and catagories, in all senses of the word. :-)

Try searching for naturalization records for sofie, her siblings, parents, and husband. You might be shocked how much information is documented on those forms. That is how I traced the surname change of my ancestors, and their birthplace. Keep in mind those records have EXTREME misspellings and inaccuracies. Try any variation you can think of and a potential accent that may have caused miscommunication.

How lucky you are. Me far to old to be able to convert. Can't retain the knowledge necessary Any 76 years old (Jewish) looking for a wife.

You are 76 years young and I think you might want to at least talk to a Rabbi if this is where your heart is.

I am appalled that so much anti-semitism exists, to the extent that engagements are broken.

I would think that to break an engagement because of a person's religion does not mean that there is hatred there.

You should not be apalled, Jews halachically cannot marry out and there are as many non jews citing racism by Jews towards them.

I am well aware that Jews are not supposed to marry outside of their own. I struggle with that when I was dating Vladislav. While he broke up and would always call back the next day apologizing, I would always wonder if I should just let him go and tell him to marry his own. Unfortunately it was not as easy as that because I never felt anything in common with mainstream Christianity. I dreaded having a Christian wedding to the point where I told my first fiancé that I did not want to be married in a church. My mom was not married in a church and neither were my grandmothers. I always believed in one God but not in the Trinity. And I could not possibly believe Jesus was God. All of this happened well before meeting Vladislav. So, unlike practicing Christians there were never any arguments about getting married in a church or getting children baptized or asking Vladislav to convert. I have known several Jewish men who had to convert to Catholicism in order to get married to a Catholic. This was never an issue with us since I did not subscribe to mainstream Christianity. I put Christian on my dating profile because the options were limited. I believed in the one God and nothing else fit. Anyhow, we ended up eloping. Another thing I wanted to say is that Vladislav was feeling disheartened over following "a list." Here's why: he had married another Russian Jew who also had non observant parents. She fit "the list". Sometime before the wedding, both families started arguing and that. continued after the wedding. Neither of them wanted to "leave and cleave" and it was corroding their marriage. She left barely 6 months after they had married and there was no reconciling. She refused it. He met me a full five years after his divorce had been final. During those five years, he was looking for people on J date. When nothing worked, he subscribed to a non Jewish website that I was on. So, that's how it all happened.

I ended up marrying Vladislav, who was a completely non-practicing, agnostic, and humanistic Jew. I am the one who has pursued giving our sons a Jewish education and I have been educating my husband about what I learn each day in my own Jewish studies. My hope is that he will wholeheartedly return to practicing Judaism and love G-d as much as I always have. This is my hope for him regardless of whether or not I find out I am Jewish according to halachic laws. Above all else, I have always believed in the One G-d, the G-d of the Jews.

Sarah, according to the details you HAVE ascertained and shared with us, Judaism comes from your Matrilineal side. That being the case, according to Halacha and any Orthodox Rabbi, including Israel (who even recognizes a fathers Judaism rather than the mother) you ARE Jewish. The fact that your Neshuma (soul) has pushed and encouraged you to marry a Jewish Man (even if he does not practice) and LIVE a Jewish Life speaks volumns in terms of THE CODE imprinted in our DNA that binds us all together, down through the Ages, as a Jewish People! Mazel Tov!

Actually, it's good that the first mother didn't want her to marry her son. If Sarah is Jewish, she should marry Jewish. It's nothing against anyone. Everyone is important and precious. It's just that we all have a different purpose. We have our purpose, and others have theirs. We can only complete ours when marrying within. Still, everyone is important and precious in their own way

Wise and loving words, Lisa, thank you.

Please share the testing service you used. I want to have my DNA tested and have no idea how to go about it. My great great grandfather was a Singer and spoke German. Thank you.

Hello Julie,
Sorry of my response is redundant, but I wanted to respond to you directly. There are several good companies for genetic testing: 23andme.com, Family Tree DNA (mine), and ancestry.com has one too.

If you are looking at your great great grandfather, you need to test a male relative who has an unbroken male line to that gentleman. DNA is passed down on X and Y chromosomes and you need the information on the Y chromosome without interference from the X.

I tested my matrilineal line since it was the only line we did not have. Sophie was my mother's, mother's, mother's, mother. That was the line that was tested and the one that put me in a Jewish cohort.

I have also read various articles about whether or not a Jewish 'gene' exists. It's more of a cohort or group of people who have a genetic mixture in common. I have seen the plots and graphs of Jews as a group (in terms of genetics). They are a distinct group separate from non-Jewish Europeans and separate from peoples of the Near East. Yet, they have genetics in common with both. In fact, they have found that the Y chromosome on Jews (as a group) is from the Near East and the X has more in common with Europeans. Still, they are a distinct group as compared to other groups. That makes sense to me because of all of the years of marrying their own.

If you feel like you might be Jewish and the feeling is undeniable, then, go ahead and research it. If you can't find the data and you still feel Jewish, then that would tell me you probably have a Jewish soul and might look into attending a local synagogue. You are being called back for a reason.

I've known since I was a very little girl that my knowledge wasn't the same as my friends. Went to Europe to see if I had roots there in 1994. I began Torah study in 2000, and Hebrew lessons shortly after. it was familiar and comfortable. If anyone has those feelings, follow Sarahs' advice, find a Rabbi and begin attending synagogue. You will be amazed at what you already have in you.

I love what you said, Sarah: "You are being called back for a reason." Couldn't agree with you more. Years ago--after feeling my Jewishness from about age 9 onward, yet fearing to open that door, and not for reasons of racism but relating to not wanting to recall Nazi Germany--I began researching my family forest. So many bloodlines! On my mother's side, I made a "shocking" discovery that our allegedly Catholic ancestor who came to Canada in the early 1600s--and married a Catholic--was actually Huguenot Protestant and had changed his Peron family name. I am now searching beyond him, back to La Rochelle France from where he emigrated. I believe he was not the only one to change religions and names, and that he descended from Sephardic Jews just south of where he lived, and that they were the Perez. Years ago, when I began this research, I dreamt I was at a fruit grocers, picking through a large pile of lemons. Suddenly, I discovered among the lemons a beautiful etrog, and I shouted out excitedly for everyone in the store to see what I had just found! I woke up in a state of joy and knew without a doubt that my ancestors had spoken to me in that dream, as excited that I had found them as I had been to discover the etrog among the lemons. Thank you so much for sharing your story, dear Sarah. B'H to you and your family.

It has always been told to me that converts to Judaism are really returning to it and that their Neshamah (soul) was always Jewish while trapped for various reasons in non-Jewish in incarnations. Finally the soul escapes its exile and returns to its true people

I have met people whose Jewishness was lost because of Hitler and the Holocaust. These people were mostly the souls of Jewish children killed by the Nazis. When their souls were reborn the bodies they went into somehow had a recollection of their families observing customs that turned out to be Jewish although they were not necessarily born into Jewish families for this life. Most were reborn during or right after the WWII. A rabbi named Gershon has written a couple of books about this." From the Ashes" or something like that. His books are collections of stories from people who have always felt they were Jewish and found out they were. WHen I was in Poland several years ago, we found young people who had just found out they were Jewish from a dying grandmother or something similar to that. Most of them embraced their Judaism and taught their parents. Ron Lauder has opened Jewish schools in Poland and these kids went to those schools.

When G-d went to offer the Torah to all the nations the Jews accepted while the other nations refused.
But.....
not all Jews accepted
and.....
not all of the other nations refused.
A majority of the Jews accepted and a majority of each nation refused.
The minority within the Jews that refused later became renegades. The minority in each nation that accepted became converts later on.
I have heard this from a respected source which right now I don't have on hand.
I just don't remember if the minority from each nation that accepted the Torah stood at Mount Sinai too. If yes, that would mean that all converts stood at mount Sinai--- as it is known that all future generations stood at Mount Sinai at the giving of the Torah.
Pretty impressive, NO???

Your statements are only partially correct.
All Jews who stood at Mount Sinai accepted the Torah, "k'ish echad b'lev echad," like one man with one heart.
Regarding non-Jews, it is true that there were individuals who did want to accept the Torah. I believe the Ramchal (Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato) says that the souls of converts come from these individuals.

My grandmother, born in the USA, was deposited and left by her father into an immigrant ghetto in the UK ( this was around 1910)
There was no information ever given to us about this side of the family. It was always pointed out that my mother and photos of my grandmother looked very Jewish. My nephew had a DNA profile and the results indicated that we are of Ashkenazi descent. It has always been a quietly confusing issue. I have quietly taken up daily reading of the Torah and this has been the beginnings of finding my identity. Thank you to the author of this essay

Hello Anonymous, I have spoken to a couple of Rabbis in detail. They have both told me that stories like mine and yours are quite common in the Jewish community. Were you raised as a Christian? I was raised to study the Old testament and to believe in the One God. I was not baptized in the church. My opinion, which is only an opinion, is that someone is Jewish. But, what is your relation to your nephew? He would need to be the son of your grandmother's daughter for it to be on the matrilineal line. Is your mom the daughter of your grandma who was dropped off? I know what you mean about photographs. I have one photograph of Sophie taken in the early 1950's before her death. Her resemblance to the people in my father-in-law's family is uncanny. She looks like she could be a twin to them. What's even more strange is a few of the family photos that we have with me, my husband, his parents, and my parents. Both my mother-in-law and my own mom have noted that I look almost identical to my own mother-in-law. I look like my mother-in-law's daughter (and not my moms!). My mother-in-law says I look like a twin to her photos when she was young. (!!!) That's great that you have been quietly reading the Torah. I say follow what your soul is telling you. If Judaism calls to you on a soul level, then I say embrace it.

I tend to believe that there is a great kind of spiritual leavening (and also separation) that is going on. The wheat is being separated from the chaff and those with Jewish souls and/or hidden Jewish heritage are coming forward because that spark within is being activated.When we went to the Passover dinner at a local congregation, the Rabbi told the story of another Rabbi who said to put out chairs for all holocaust survivors. The Rabbi said that's great, but also put out a chair for all of those hidden Jews or Jewish souls who have yet to return to the temple. That Rabbi believes we are in a time when so many are being drawn back to the synagogue.

With all due respect, but given the evidence, it is rather premature to speak of an “unbroken matrilineal line” or a grandmother " who deliberately buried her Jewishness". Schaub sounds like a name from a Germanic-speaking country, not Spain. (SCH doesn't sound Spanish at all!). Please note that a lot of databases compiled by amateurs contain nonsense and mistakes. If you look in the huge database of the Mormons (compiled from church books, government records etc), you will see countless christian Schaubs, not one of them living in Spain. Many surnames are both carried by jews and non-jews.
Even DNA is not per se a reliable indicator. Sephardi Jews also share much DNA with Arabic people.
That said, I do not mean to discourage Sara. Just trying to keep things factual. I wish her good luck on her journey of getting closer to Hashem.

Jacob, you know so much. How come you do not know that? THey went other places to, but also Germany and intermarried with German Jews.

I thought it sounded German, not Spanish.

Is it not possible that a Schaub migrated from Germany to Spain
prior to the inquisition and his descendants retained that family name?

"Schaub" does sound Germanic, but it may be a corruption of a Spanish name. Open up, don't close up!

Raised Christian, I was always bullied for being Jewish....we had a "German" last name, my mother insisted, on both sides of the family; my father's work led us to move every few years where my dark curly hair and last name made me a target....at 12, I was dismayed to find out I no longer believed any of the Christian teachings I'd been raised with....but had a strong affinity for Judaism. I discovered (to my mother's horror) that both my mother's and father's families were BOTH Jewish -- but chose to hide it due to antisemitism, restrictive covenants and in the shadow of the Shoah. My father's mother cut off all contact with her husband's family as they wouldn't deny their Jewishness, and she felt it was essential to assimilate to "protect" the family. This young woman in this essay isn't lying -- her family lied to her, as mine did to me. I made aliyah, was able to establish my Jewishness to the Rabbinut, and I'm now married to my Jewish husband, living in Jerusalem in an observant home with 4 children and two grandchildren. "Ingathering of the Exiles" embraces far more people in "exile" than you might imagine.

It states in the Navi that we read in haftorah that G-d will take from the Gentiles Cohanim and Leviyim by the final redemption. This is explained to be the lost Jews.

Hello anonymous,
I can relate to your story because we often moved often. Wherever we moved, there was always someone or a group of someones who associated me with the Jewish people. In middle school, while my best friend who had Scotch Irish heritage was followed around by all the WASP boys, I was followed around by every Jewish boy in the class. My friend would joke that if there was a Jewish boy around he was going to find me. We lived in the city with a large Jewish population at that point and I felt quite happy around my Jewish peers. In eighth grade we moved to a small town in the Midwest that had been settled by Germans. That's when I began to experience the bullying because I looked the exact opposite of what a "pretty" girl was supposed to look like according to my peers. They felt everything about my physical appearance was ugly and they associated it, for whatever reason, with being Jewish. I personally would not trade in my appearance to look northern German even if I could. The Jewish women I have met over the course of my life have always been stunning beauties in my eyes. I don't understand why such anti-Semitism persists, even to this day. Just when we think people may have evolved and let go of anti-Semitism, it rears its terrible head. Even today with all the awareness around the Holocaust, there is still anti-Semitism it blows my mind. Congrats on finding your Jewish roots.

It never ceases to amaze me of so many stories of people who one day find out that decades or centuries before their ascendants were Jews. Somehow there must be a living thread that connects the jewish people through the generations.
Am Israel Jay!

It doesn't sound Hebrew neither....But probably a third of Ashkenazim have spanish roots....So....!
On the Other Hand: you can be a Cousin of Ashkenazim and have ONLY European autosomal...despite viral endogamy for these last 450 years in Ashkenaz...Testing is enormous interesting and surprising...Disappointing for many Endo-racists who want to believe that they are all from Middle East...All of them...But they are from Germanic-Celtic French-German tribes and Slavic R1a and Nordic-Balkanic I2a and Roman origins Abbruzzes and Lombardy...proved by genes clusters...and ligneage. Sarah "doesn't look Jewish" (in France, Italy Spain and South Germany certainly not; so far you didn't tell WHERE COMING FROM JEWS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT......nobody can talk about Jewish types/ Each Type is Special for a "certain AREA long time endogamic phenomenon...and not valid for elsewhere...(Non Jews from a determined area have also a Certain endogamic made type which is different from the remain of their Nation fellows citizen...
Temperament and Characters are somehow inheritable and a sort of special general mind attitudes can be .transmitted to offsprings of course. But it is not a way to determine Who's Who.
My family is full Ashkeazi jewish and we have G2a3b R1b1b2 Ydna and H1c or H1 mothers' lines: absolutely NOT Middle Easterner....

Great article. I can totally relate. The Jewish spark, it's eternal ! We're connected, by something much bigger, let's celebrate and keep the flame alive!

The great ingathering of Israel is happening in front of our faces.

Yet you have people calling a confusion of identity a, "lie."

How harsh people are when they do not understand the travail of the Jewish people through the last three millennia. This story brought tears to my eyes.

Be proud if your jewish. Heritage is everything in life and views should be respected by all. Jews have suffered enough. Can't we all live together in peace and harmony

Stephan Lerch Atkinson

its very scary and disturbing that people lie like this on dating profiles

Her lying was not to conceal her identity. In fact, she soon told him she didn't think she was Jewish. I do not advocate lying, but I think this case is not the norm.

You know... There are other dating sites besides Jdate...

How exciting for this Sephardim? A great story that inspires one to search out their roots. G-d is faithful to reveal in G-d's perfect time those things He has kept hidden.